Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Webb]

Jethro--Have you been so long on this this thread that you do not know which
"faith alone" is meant?

 

[stovebolts]

Not 'by' water, but 'through' the water. The Greek word is dia which means through, NOT because of. God saved them 'through' the water, 'by' the ark, just as we are saved through the water of baptism, BY the resurrection of Jesus Christ, v21.

You must think this is my first pony ride Lets just look at this before we tackle the rest of what you've posted.

You are correct by sayig that dia is "Not because of". Look up the greek word dia in any decent lexicon, you will find it is analogous to instrument... Example: His emotions were expressed through his tears. Tears are not the emotions, they are the expression of emotions. Thus, tears become the instruments which carries the emotions.

Now look back at the passage. eight souls were saved dia water. In other words, God used the water as an instrument of both destruction and salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro--Have you been so long on this this thread that you do not know which
"faith alone" is meant?

Please clarify which one you mean so no one will be guilty of assuming which one you mean and Kidron can address you appropriately if he so desires.

 

[stovebolts]

m not suggesting that water baptism is to be abolished.
Not at all.
Where i have an issue with what you are teaching, is very simple...
U are implying that Salvation of the soul....that spiritual regeneration..... cannot be separated from water baptism .
You have been teaching that water baptism is a sort of part 11, regarding salvation, and that without it, there is no salvation.
In other words, you are teaching that Faith + water baptism is the means of salvation, vs what Paul teaches,..... which is.... Faith in Christ alone with nothing else as a part of it, is what God has provided to save a soul.

You misunderstand me friend. What I am teaching is that baptism is a normative response to the saving grace of the gospel. What I am teaching is faith and action in perfect harmony.

I am teaching, "Go out and make deciples of men, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"

We fool ourselves when we think that all we need to do is believe in an idea with out actively acting on that idea. No, we are called to live the idea actively. Jesus said that those who hear his words and do not put them into practice are like that of a fool and a bit later he goes down to say that on that day, many will say to him, "didn't we..." and Jesus will reply, "I never knew you".

If somebody goes into the baptismal pool expecting that it is their ticket to salvation, then they've been taught wrong or they are like Simon in Acts 14 because it is being viewed as an exchange for wages. But like Abraham, his faith preceded his actions, thus circumcision was the seal.

If we look in the NT, I'd like you to show me where one person who called themselves a Christian wasn't baptized. Baptism is our seal of rightousness of our faith prior to baptism. We should wear it proudly as it is an active expression of our salvation.

 

[Webb]

Jethro, Kidron is man enough tod speak for himself.

 

[Stan53]

You must think this is my first pony ride Lets just look at this before we tackle the rest of what you've posted.

You are correct by sayig that dia is "Not because of". Look up the greek word dia in any decent lexicon, you will find it is analogous to instrument... Example: His emotions were expressed through his tears. Tears are not the emotions, they are the expression of emotions. Thus, tears become the instruments which carries the emotions.

Now look back at the passage. eight souls were saved dia water. In other words, God used the water as an instrument of both destruction and salvation.

You're using an analogy to interpret an analogy? Sorry I can't see that. The situation depicted may be analogous to our baptism in water, but it was the ark, a typification of Christ, that saved them, and Christ saves us. It is not the medium they were in and besides, they were NOT immersed.

 

[Stan53]

So infant baptism alone saves?

No. I would have to say, that I believe the majority of participants on this thread are anabaptists.

 

[Kidron]

Welcome Kidron to the melee and thats what this is. I continue to invite any faith alone advocate (now including you) to a one on one discussion. Otherwise I have better fish to fry.

Is believing that "water baptism saves" a melee?
Not really.
Its just heresy.
There is lots of that around.

And as Paul taught that the gospel of the grace of God has nothing to do with water,( or he would have said it did in over 23 letters he wrote)....then, if you are currently floating in water for your salvation, i suggest you find some divine shed blood instead.
Because without the shedding of it there is no salvation.
ever.

And regarding your 1 on 1.
I'll tell you what.
If you admit that you believe that water saves you, and not the blood of Christ which was shed , then, i'll be happy to discuss your cult teaching.
np.


However, IF you try to have both ways, ..........in other words, if you try to pretend that you believe that faith is the means to get from God his free gift of salvation, while in your heart you really believe that water is the way to heaven, then, i would not want to discuss anything with such a deceived deceiver.
I have better fish to fry, you see.
Much better....




K

 

[dadof10]

So infant baptism alone saves?

Yes. But the salvation can (and usually is) lost due to our rejection of God, otherwise known as sin. We are then justified by our faith and actions as we go through our lives. Infant baptism is our initial justification. Justification is a life long process, not a one time event.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[stovebolts]

You're using an analogy to interpret an analogy? Sorry I can't see that. The situation depicted may be analogous to our baptism in water, but it was the ark, a typification of Christ, that saved them, and Christ saves us. It is not the medium they were in and besides, they were NOT immersed.

Neither are an analogy. It was a simple use of grammer. They were kept save in the ark, but they were saved by the water. What do I mean by they were saved by the water? Genesis 6:7-8 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Noah and his family were saved from a life with wickedness all around them. The world was cleansed by the water of it's evil.

Thus, as Peter stated, "eight souls were saved by water."

Perhaps this will help.

Net Bible:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith,20 and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not from 21 works, so that no one can boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them. 23

20tc The feminine article is found before πίστεως (pistews, faithÂ) in the Byzantine text as well as in A Ψ 1881 pc. Perhaps for some scribes the article was intended to imply creedal fidelity as a necessary condition of salvation (you are saved through the faithÂ), although elsewhere in the corpus Paulinum the phrase διὰ τῆς πίστεως (dia th" pistew") is used for the act of believing rather than the content of faith (cf. Romans 3:30, 31; Galatians 3:14; Ephesians 3:17; Colossians 2:12). On the other side, strong representatives of the Alexandrian and Western texts (א B D* F G P 0278 6 33 1739 al bo) lack the article. Hence, both text-critically and exegetically, the meaning of the text here is most likely saved through faith as opposed to saved through the faith. Regarding the textual problem, the lack of the article is the preferred reading.


21tn Or not as a result of.Â

23tn Grk so that we might walk in them (or by themÂ).

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Lets look at the word through (dia)

New Testament (eds. Brooke Foss Westcott, Fenton John Anthony Hort)
III. causal, through, by,
B. of the Instrument or Means. (Ephesians 2:8 translates dia as through, aka Instrument)
C. of Manner (Acts 15:7 translates dia as by, aka manner)

Now lets look at the verse: eight souls were saved dia water

The manner in which they were saved, is water.
Water was the instrument of their salvation.

Now, let us not confuse the subject. It is clear that God used Water to save them. Salvation comes by God, and God alone. but Water was God's instrument for salvation. Baptism is no different and is an instrument for salvation when coupled with a pure heart full of faith.

What I'd like to bring into the mix also is the idea of reconciliation. How does God reconcile all things if not by way of transformation. So we see that God is as much at work in transforming a life, as he is saving a life. Again, you can't separate the physical from the spiritual.

 

[Webb]

Kidron wrote , post 488--''IF YOU ADMIT THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT WATER SAVES YOU, AND NOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WHICH WAS SHED, THEN, I'LL BE HAPPY TO DISCUSS YOUR CULT TEACHING.''

Which means you will only discuss on one-on-one a strawman of your making. Only if you can put words in my mouth. Only if you can tell others what you think I believe when in fact I do not. Let it be clearly understood: I do not believe and never have believed nor will I ever believe what you want me to "ADMIT'' in the above.

Souls are at stake. I love yours as well as all those represented. I have no axe to grind, but am set for the defense of the gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ Who did, yes, did shed His precious blood for you and me.

 

[MarkT]

The discussion seems to be turning on the method of baptism rather than the necessity of baptism. Note the ones who were baptized by John still needed to be baptized in Christ by preaching Jesus and the laying on of hands. So they went from John to Jesus. In other words, when they heard Jesus was the Christ, they believed and were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. So they were baptized by hearing. ‘Is not my word like fire, says the LORD.‘ Jeremiah 23:29 This is why John said, ‘he will baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit‘. They were baptized by hearing the word. ‘Thy words were found and I ate them, and thy words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart; for I am called by thy name, O LORD, God of hosts. Jer. 15:16

John was sent to prepare the way of the LORD. So we can look at his baptism as preparing us for the way. That is, repentance and confession prepare us for the word. Is water necessary to prepare us? I would say so. But remember John said he needed to be baptized by Jesus. So you still need to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and believe he is the Christ. You still need to hear the word.

I believe Jesus’ baptism is an ongoing thing. We are commanded to seek knowledge and wisdom and understanding. Our knowledge is refined as gold and our understanding as silver. We seek water like we seek the word of God. When we preach Jesus Christ we become a spring of water. When we thirst, we thirst for the word of God like water.

I would say water is necessary. But if we give men living water and they turn and repent and confess their sins and ask for forgiveness is that not the same?

 

[MarkT]

Neither are an analogy. It was a simple use of grammer. They were kept save in the ark, but they were saved by the water. What do I mean by they were saved by the water? Genesis 6:7-8 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Noah and his family were saved from a life with wickedness all around them. The world was cleansed by the water of it's evil.

Thus, as Peter stated, "eight souls were saved by water."

I would disagree somewhat with your interpretation Steve. The RSV says ‘through’ water. If we put it in context it must be seen in the same sense as ‘he was put to death in the flesh.’ which precedes it. That is, he went ‘through’ the ordeal. In that sense the 8 went ‘through’ the ordeal which was the destruction of the flesh or water/the flood. And then Peter again uses ‘through’ when he says baptism is an appeal to God for a clear conscience, ‘through’ the resurrection of Jesus Christ, meaning ‘through’ what he suffered and his ascent to the throne of God. I take it so we can ask God to forgive us in his name. So in every case we can see the word is a passage, as in he went through the passage or the ordeal. He was put to death in the flesh. He was made alive in the spirit. He went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few were saved through water. I take it to mean through the flood. And note he refers to the ark when he says, 'in which a few were saved'.

 

[Stan53]

Neither are an analogy. It was a simple use of grammar. They were kept save in the ark, but they were saved by the water. What do I mean by they were saved by the water? Genesis 6:7-8 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Noah and his family were saved from a life with wickedness all around them. The world was cleansed by the water of it's evil.

Right so the water was to purge life and they were saved OUT of that purge via the Ark. Gen 7:7; And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood.

Thus, as Peter stated, "eight souls were saved by water."

Sigh.... again the word is NOT 'by', it is through. It is a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act. The Greek word prior to it issōzō and connotes to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction. The Ark is what saved them, no matter how many times you try to interpret it as "by", it is "through", as a tunnel through a mountain.

Perhaps this will help.
Net Bible:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith,20 and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 2:9 it is not from 21 works, so that no one can boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.
Lets look at the word through (dia)
New Testament (eds. Brooke Foss Westcott, Fenton John Anthony Hort)
III. causal, through, by,
B. of the Instrument or Means. (Ephesians 2:8 translates dia as through, aka Instrument)
C. of Manner (Acts 15:7 translates dia as by, aka manner)
Now lets look at the verse: eight souls were saved dia water
The manner in which they were saved, is water.
Water was the instrument of their salvation.

Yes, exactly....it is Grace that SAVES us through faith, in this context. Just like English, Greek has different connotations based on the context it is used in. It may be easy for us to distinguish this in English, just as it is easy for Greeks or Greek scholars to distinguish the context in Greek. Not every word means the same thing in the Bible. The rules of basic grammar don't change.

Now, let us not confuse the subject. It is clear that God used Water to save them. Salvation comes by God, and God alone. but Water was God's instrument for salvation. Baptism is no different and is an instrument for salvation when coupled with a pure heart full of faith.
What I'd like to bring into the mix also is the idea of reconciliation. How does God reconcile all things if not by way of transformation. So we see that God is as much at work in transforming a life, as he is saving a life. Again, you can't separate the physical from the spiritual.

Well I disagree. It may be what you want to see to support your assertion, but I don't see it that way. As well, it is NOT consistent with what the rest of scripture says, so in my view it would be better to err on the side of what scripture is more consistent on.
If water was God's so-called instrument of salvation then I'm sure it would be much clearer in His word and in the Words of Jesus. As it isn't, this concept is quite a stretch.
Actually as soon as you die, your physical and spiritual does separate.

 

[dadof10]

Right so the water was to purge life and they were saved OUT of that purge via the Ark. Gen 7:7; And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood.

Do you really think this is what Peter meant when he wrote "...eight in all were saved through water..."? Do you think his point was really the Ark did the actual saving and baptism has NOTHING whatsoever to do with it? Why would he purposely be so elusive and say, point blank, the OPPOSITE of what he meant? If you don't like the analogy, fine, but we need to ask ourselves what is his point, and it's NOT that the Ark saved.

 

[dadof10]

Baptism in water saves then those folks who are baptized in the Ganges River are saved?
Salvation is by the Blood of Christ

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I agree that salvation is by the blood of Christ. Baptism is the APPLICATION of the sacrifice of the cross. You believe that faith saves and I wouldn't presume to say "no, we aren't saved by faith, we are saved by the blood of Christ." You would respond that faith is the application of the merits of Christ, and you would be right. It's the same with baptism.

 

[reba]

I would say faith is a gift of God

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Stan53]

Do you really think this is what Peter meant when he wrote "...eight in all were saved through water..."? Do you think his point was really the Ark did the actual saving and baptism has NOTHING whatsoever to do with it? Why would he purposely be so elusive and say, point blank, the OPPOSITE of what he meant? If you don't like the analogy, fine, but we need to ask ourselves what is his point, and it's NOT that the Ark saved.

Well, Peter answers that in verse 21, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The pledge is the act of confessing Jesus and the baptism is the symbol of that process.

 

[dadof10]

The same place the word "trinity" and "rapture" are found..

Huh? You have a point on the rapture, it is a misunderstanding of Scripture, so isn't taught either. The doctrine of the Trinity is taught in Scripture. I'm not looking for the words "symbolic baptism", it doesn't need to be put in that way, but the teaching should be there, don't you think?

Listen.

OK, I'm listening.

Water baptism IDENTIFIES you with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
Its a figure.

That baptism is a figure is not taught in Scripture either.

Think of it as being in the army.
In the army you wear a uniform, but the uniform does not sign you up, it only shows you have committed to the agreement when you signed up.
Water baptism, is like the army uniform............it shows/represents that you have signed up for eternal life by faith.

Baptism is NOTHING like wearing a uniform.

Now, tell me if you agree with this statement as i would like to find out exactly how you view water baptism regarding the salvation of a person.
You can be saved/born again and not ever be baptised in water, and you can be baptised in water and not be saved/born again.

Yes to both. It's possible to be saved by a deathbed conversion, which is salvation by faith alone. It's just not the normative means of salvation. If a person lives a sinful life and at the end of it repents, salvation is possible, even without baptism.

The second instance, unfortunately, is not as rare. Justification is a process that lasts a lifetime and even though a person is justified through baptism, he can lose that salvation by sin. He can repent and regain his good standing with God, too. It's by Grace alone we are justified.

 

[dadof10]

I would say faith is a gift of God

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

And I would say so is baptism. We are saved by Grace alone.