Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Stan53]

The thing symbolized (salvation through His blood) should never be expected without the symbol (baptism).

I truly doubt anyone goes into salvation with the intent of NOT obeying Christ.
However just as being baptized in the Holy Spirit is important to pursue, along with water baptism, it does NOT validate our salvation, only confirms and supports it.

Have you been baptized in water – baptized into Christ? Is baptism in water from the mind of God or from man?

Yes I have, as stated in my profile. I assume this question is rhetorical.

I have used it exactly as it used and self-explained in Holy Writ – Paul believed Jesus was the Christ and he was baptized in water “for the forgiveness of sins†as he called upon the name of the Lord. This correct meaning is hard to miss my friend – yes? What do you think it means?

Your response either indicates you didn't actually read it, or are still using eisegesis to read scripture. The context starts in Acts 21:17. Paul was having to deal with Jewish Christian leaders and their attempt to Judeaize Christianity.

You are quite mistaken – Mark 16:16 has been considered part of the canonical text for over 2000 years. Was Jesus mistaken when He clearly states one must believe and be baptized in order to be saved? What part of Mark 16:16 contradicts what is taught in any other part of the NT? Please be specific – I think you may be confused.

Matthew 28:16-20, is the only other Gospel that shows the great commission and is NOT consistent with the version in Mark. As Mark is the only indication where Jesus apparently says this and there is NO other support of this thought in the NT, it would suggest Mark is NOT accurate. It has already been shown that there are other NT scriptures that support the contrary. I don't see it as a mistake by Jesus, but a mistake by man in saying Jesus said this. The confusion would be to say both accounts in Matthew 28 and Mark 16 are accurate.

 

[Stan53]

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
How were the eight saved? Was it "through" the Ark? No, it was "through water"!

Look at these verses you've quoted and answer me this.

1. The first two words of v19, "in which", refer to what?
2. The words "in which" in v20, refer to what?

Jesus went to where the spirits were, in the spirit, as He made His way through the prison.
The eight were saved in the Ark, as it made its way through the water.

First of all, who said the flood was a "baptism"? The flood SYMBOLIZED "baptism, which now saves you". According to Peter, the flood saved the eight, so this is SYMBOLIC of the waters of baptism.
Secondly, it was PETER, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who is using the symbolism of the flood to teach that baptism saves, not me. I'm only reading the actual words he wrote without bias. You obviously don't like his methods or his analogy.

Exactly, a symbol. So now we look at this section as symbolic, NOT literally.
I have no problem with what Peter says here, I just understand the context. I'm not sure you do.
Now if we can't agree on what Peter IS saying here then it would be better to find other scripture that addresses salvation as requiring water baptism to achieve salvation.
Maybe you can provide one or three?

No sense you continuing to say the same thing about these same verses over and over again. I sure don't want to.

 

[dadof10]

Look at these verses you've quoted and answer me this.

1. The first two words of v19, "in which", refer to what?
2. The words "in which" in v20, refer to what?

Jesus went to where the spirits were, in the spirit, as He made His way through the prison.
The eight were saved in the Ark, as it made its way through the water.

So, then how does baptism correspond to an Ark traveling through water? The words are "and this corresponds to baptism, which now saves you". The point of Peter's analogy is that baptism saves you, and this is what your theology won't let you accept.

Exactly, a symbol. So now we look at this section as symbolic, NOT literally.
I have no problem with what Peter says here, I just understand the context. I'm not sure you do.
Now if we can't agree on what Peter IS saying here then it would be better to find other scripture that addresses salvation as requiring water baptism to achieve salvation.
Maybe you can provide one or three?

Others here have given you verses that show how baptism is commanded by Jesus, how it remits sin, how it is tied to repentance and salvation, but you just twist them to mean what YOU think they should say instead of what the plain words of Scripture actually say.

On the other hand, I'm sure if Scripture actually said the words "baptism saves you" you would gladly change your theology to conform to.....wait a minute...

No sense you continuing to say the same thing about these same verses over and over again. I sure don't want to.

Uncomfortable, isn't it?

 

[reba]

If i said we had a terrific wind n rain storm but we were safe through the storm.

What does that mean?

Seems to me it would mean we were safe in spite of the storm not because of it.. God says directly ... He brought the flood to destroy all flesh.....

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

 

[MarkT]

Hi Mark,

I was quoting from the KJV. It translates the verse as "saved by water". The ASV uses "saved through water"

Whatever. Baptized by water - keep that in mind. The flood was sent to destroy everything made of flesh. But it was the ark that saved Noah and his family. Water - death of flesh. Jesus Christ - the ark.

 

[Webb]

Mark T on post 525 writes: ''BUT IT WAS THE ARK THAT SAVED NOAH AND HIS FAMILY. WATER - DEATH OF FLESH. JESUS CHRIST - THE ARK.''

BUT -- the BIBLE reads--"eight souls were saved by water." ( I Pet. 3:20 ). Who is right? Mark T and all the faith only crowd on this forum? Your Bible reads that those eight souls of Noah's day were "saved by water". Why is it people just can't believe Jesus and Peter? Jesus is the Christ folks and He spoke Mark 16:15,15. Peter was His inspired apostle who was closely associated with Jesus. WHO knows better? Jesus, and Peter or uninspired man today.

Once again, I'll challenge any faith only professor to discuss this on the one-on-one. It has been suggested on this forum that Mark 16:15,16 spoken by Jesus is "questionable", and I will challenge that position and answer it.

What in the world is this religious world coming to when it questions Jesus, Peter or any other NT writer?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Cornelius was not saved in, at, through, or by water baptism.

Not all, but countless people have followed in that pattern since then.

End of discussion.

 

[Webb]

No one has "followed in that pattern since then". If you think so provide the scripture which so teaches.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

James is NOT talking about Faith for Salvation. He is talking about faith PRODUCING works in our daily walk. If you really can't see that then I'm afraid we have nothing more to talk about.
I'm NOT going to repeat myself. You choosing to ignore it doesn't negate it.
All your words here have no Biblical support, even though I clearly asked for it, so I have no choice but to ignore this post...it's all your logic, NOT God's Word.

The kind of faith James is talking about is a faith that justifies which everything to do with salvation.

You (not James) are trying to say faith alone saves then after being saved that faith alone produces works.


(1) faith alone>>>>>>>(2)saved>>>>>>>>>>(3) then works.


Above is how you would view salvation. You do not take into account that your initial (1) faith only is dead having no works and a dead faith cannot produce salvation or works. So your plan of salvation begins and ends at (1) and never can move to (2) or (3) for it is dead on arrival at (1).

 

[cupid dave]

Jesus saw that it was too dangerous after John was arrested for holding a pharisee under too long.
The man died.

After that, Jesus told the apostles to just wash their feet instead.

But the Near Death Experience that John ha been dunking peple into made most "see the light."

What we do know about those near death experiences is that the person says they actually met God or Jesus, where people who have Straight lined almost died.



From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul Gustave Doré (French pronunciation: [pɔl ɡystav dɔʁe]; January 6, 1832 – January 23, 1883) was a French artist, engraver, illustrator



Gustave Doré's depiction of the highest heaven as described by Dante Alighieri in the Paradiso. NDE researcher and religious scholar Carol Zaleski has cited parallels between the Paradiso and NDEs.[1]









A near-death experience (NDE) refers to a broad range of personal experiences associated with impending death, encompassing multiple possible sensations including detachment from the body; feelings of levitation; extreme fear; total serenity, security, or warmth; the experience of absolute dissolution; and the presence of a light.

(I am the light?")

These phenomena are usually reported after an individual has been pronounced clinically dead or otherwise very close to death, hence the term near-death experience. Many NDE reports, however, originate from events that are not life-threatening. With recent developments in cardiac resuscitation techniques, the number of reported NDEs has increased.[2]


According to a Gallup poll, approximately eight million Americans claim to have had a near-death experience.[13

 

[zeke]

Whatever. Baptized by water - keep that in mind. The flood was sent to destroy everything made of flesh. But it was the ark that saved Noah and his family. Water - death of flesh. Jesus Christ - the ark.

Water of the flood - antitype -water of baptism. The comparison is water to water.​

You completely miss what Peter is saying. He is quite clear, the water of the Flood saved Noah as it separated him and his family from the sinful world in which he lived. Peter tells us that Christian baptism is the antitype corresponding to the water of the Flood (not the ark) and baptism in water “now saves us†by separating us from sin as it points us to the salvation we have through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The sinner goes down into the water and the "new man in Christ" rises up out of the water to "walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3-5).

The believer who submits to baptism is putting his faith in Jesus as he is immersed in the water (baptized into His death) trusting that God will “washing away†his sins. Baptism remains what it has always been – “the answer of a good conscience toward God†and it remains an essential part of the gospel of grace. Baptism is from God - not from man.

To deny that baptism in water “now saves us†is to deny what is clearly written in Holy Writ.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(1Pe 3:21 KJV)
​

 

[zeke]

Cornelius was not saved in, at, through, or by water baptism.

Peter was instructed to speak unto Cornelius "words whereby he would be saved" (Acts 11:14) because "faith comes by hearing" and those words included the command to be baptized in water.

And [Peter] commanded [Cornelius and his house] to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. (Acts 10:48 (NKJV)​

Cornelius, like Paul was commanded to “be baptized, and wash away thy sins”…

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
(Act 22:16 KJV)​

The pattern is believe and be baptized and then comes salvation. The Bible does not say believe and be saved and then be baptized.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
(Mar 16:16 KJV)​

 

[cupid dave]

To deny that baptism in water “now saves us†is to deny what is clearly written in Holy Writ.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(1Pe 3:21 KJV)
​

Intereting in this verse that the Good Conscience toward god is what the water baptism brings about.

I am further encouraged by the long history of these NDE, and the old, even ancient, cry of the saved in all those generations beofre our own, who asked the question, "Brother, have you seenthe light?"

Peter does not conflict with our ability to see the baptism as an experience where the person is held under until he almost Straight Lines, and in complete fear of his life, "sees the light."

 

[cupid dave]

Has anyone here almost drown as had myself at age 12?
Do we have any readers here who have seen the light?



The long tunnel...

 

[zeke]

Peter does not conflict with our ability to see the baptism as an experience where the person is held under until he almost Straight Lines, and in complete fear of his life, "sees the light."

Peter in no way compares baptism in water to some 'mystical event' where one "sees the light" during a near drowning. The proper candidate for baptism is the one who has heard the word of God and believes in his heart that Jesus is the Christ. Without faith baptism only gets one wet.

 

[Kidron]

The believer who submits to baptism is putting his faith in Jesus
(1Pe 3:21 KJV)
[/B]​

Actually zeke, you are exactly backwards in your theology.
The answer is,,,,,,,you receive Christ after hearing the Gospel, you are born again by exercising faith in the message , and then following your converstion you submit to the process (Water Baptism) that identifies your "in Christ" position.

1. Faith cometh by hearing the Gospel.

2. You believe the Gospel and receive it by faith.

3. Now saved /born again/redeemed by the blood of the Lamb .


4. Baptised in water...(symbolic of the old man dying and the new man being resurrected).


Now the question for you, Zeke.

Can a person be saved if there is no water baptism supply within 250 miles?

Say i am witnessing the Gospel to a Jew in Israel, and he sincerely decides to accept Jesus as his Messiah/savior by faith, and we have a sinners prayer and he is born again and filled with the Holy Spirit.
The problem is, he is in a hospital bed, a quadriplegic, and there is no way to get him to your church baptismal pool, and oddly enough they are fresh out at the Jewish hospital he is in..
So, do i just pass on this soul and find me a Jew on a beach?
You decide, as you seem to think that water saves us..




K

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually zeke, you are exactly backwards in your theology.
The answer is,,,,,,,you receive Christ after hearing the Gospel, you are born again by exercising faith in the message , and then following your converstion you submit to the process (Water Baptism) that identifies your "in Christ" position.

1. Faith cometh by hearing the Gospel.

2. You believe the Gospel and receive it by faith.

3. Now saved /born again/redeemed by the blood of the Lamb .


4. Baptised in water...(symbolic of the old man dying and the new man being resurrected).


K

This would be re-arranging Mk 16:16 to read "he that believeth is saved, then baptized after being saved".

 

[zeke]

Actually zeke, you are exactly backwards in your theology.

Well, Kidron the theology I posted is NT theology so it appears you are the one who has it backwards. Maybe you can tell us which Bible version you use that presents Mark 16:16 as “he who believes and is saved shall be baptizedâ€. I am not familiar with such a version.

Can a person be saved if there is no water baptism supply within 250 miles?

The NT presents a loving and just God who always allow believers to obey His command and be baptized in water. There is not one recorded case in the NT of anyone denied ample water to be baptized into Christ calling on the name of the Lord.

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
(Act 8:12 KJV)

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
(Act 8:35-38 KJV)
​

Your hypothetical question does not negate the command of the Lord to believe and be baptized and then comes salvation.

"Baptism is the grave of the old man, and the birth of the new. As he sinks beneath the baptismal waters, the believer buries there all his corrupt affections and past sins; as he emerges thence, he rises regenerate, quickened to new hopes and new life." ~ J. B. Lightfoot ​

 

[dadof10]

Whatever. Baptized by water - keep that in mind. The flood was sent to destroy everything made of flesh. But it was the ark that saved Noah and his family. Water - death of flesh. Jesus Christ - the ark.

Then what does Peter mean when he says that the flood water symbolizes baptism?

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[dadof10]

If i said we had a terrific wind n rain storm but we were safe through the storm.

What does that mean?

Seems to me it would mean we were safe in spite of the storm not because of it.. God says directly ... He brought the flood to destroy all flesh.....

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

It would depend on what parallel you were trying to draw and what lesson you were trying to teach. Peter's lesson was baptism saves you. That was the reason for the analogy, and he used the waters of the flood as a teaching tool. What do you think he was getting at?

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