Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[dadof10]

Cornelius was not saved in, at, through, or by water baptism.

Not all, but countless people have followed in that pattern since then.

End of discussion.

Peter says "baptism, which now saves you". End of discussion.

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[Stan53]

So, then how does baptism correspond to an Ark traveling through water? The words are "and this corresponds to baptism, which now saves you". The point of Peter's analogy is that baptism saves you, and this is what your theology won't let you accept.

The words are, "this symbolizes". I am sure it had a lot to do with the Jewish believers he was talking to. You obviously don't get Peter's example or exactly what He is talking about. I do not have the motivation to continue trying to explain or exegete this for you. I suggest you go to this webpage to read a comprehensive commentary on this section of scripture.

http://preceptaustin.org/1_peter_318-22.htm
​

Others here have given you verses that show how baptism is commanded by Jesus, how it remits sin, how it is tied to repentance and salvation, but you just twist them to mean what YOU think they should say instead of what the plain words of Scripture actually say.

This sounds like a response from someone who really doesn't know what the BIBLE in it's entirety, has to say on the subject. It's called EXEGESIS, you should try it.

On the other hand, I'm sure if Scripture actually said the words "baptism saves you" you would gladly change your theology to conform to.....

Well yes if the Bible as a whole actually conveyed that message, I would have no choice but to submit to it... the fact is.... it DOESN'T.

 

[zeke]

I suggest you go to this webpage to read a comprehensive commentary on this section of scripture.

http://preceptaustin.org/1_peter_318-22.htm
​

Well Stan, your referenced website notes the commentary by Albert Barnes. He has no trouble understanding that "baptism now also saves us" and he has no problem understanding that the antecedent "is clearly not the ark, but water". Where does that leave your "EXEGESIS"?

1 Peter 3:21

The like figure whereunto, even baptism, doth also now save us - There are some various readings here in the Greek text, but the sense is not essentially varied. Some have proposed to read (ῷ hō) to which instead of (ὅ ho) which, so as to make the sense “the antitype to which baptism now also saves us.†The antecedent to the relative, whichever word is used, is clearly not the ark, but water; and the idea is, that as Noah was saved by water, so there is a sense in which water is made instrumental in our salvation. The mention of water in the case of Noah, in connection with his being saved, by an obvious association suggested to the mind of the apostle the use of water in our salvation, and hence led him to make the remark about the connection of baptism with our salvation...The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us. ~ Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible​

 

[zeke]

Well yes if the Bible as a whole actually conveyed that message, I would have no choice but to submit to it... the fact is.... it DOESN'T.

But Peter is clear - "baptism saves you" as the answer of a good conscience toward God - by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You have the choice to accept this truth but you refuse - why? It is all in black and white - it is all in the Book. You "kick against the pricks".

 

[D4Christ]

I'm confused. And no...I have not had the desire to read thur 37 pages of this thread, so forgive me please if this point has already been raised and answered.

Romans 10

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach: 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.†12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€

What happens if someone confesses Jesus is Lord, believes in their heart they are made right with God and that Christ was raised from the dead......and then drops dead?

Will their name not be found in the Book of Life because they did not make it to water before dying?

Luke 7

41 Then Jesus told him this story: “A man loaned money to two people—500 pieces of silver to one and 50 pieces to the other. 42 But neither of them could repay him, so he kindly forgave them both, canceling their debts. Who do you suppose loved him more after that?â€

43 Simon answered, “I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt.â€
“That’s right,†Jesus said. 44 Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Look at this woman kneeling here. When I entered your home, you didn’t offer me water to wash the dust from my feet, but she has washed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You didn’t greet me with a kiss, but from the time I first came in, she has not stopped kissing my feet. 46 You neglected the courtesy of olive oil to anoint my head, but she has anointed my feet with rare perfume.
47 “I tell you, her sins—and they are many—have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love.†48 Then Jesus said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.â€
49 The men at the table said among themselves, “Who is this man, that he goes around forgiving sins?â€50 And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.â€

Christ told this woman she was saved by her faith. Then Christ told her to go. Maybe the scholars left out the part about her baptism??:

Blessings,
Dee

 

[zeke]

What happens if someone confesses Jesus is Lord, believes in their heart they are made right with God and that Christ was raised from the dead......and then drops dead?

Will their name not be found in the Book of Life because they did not make it to water before dying?

Why would one confesses Jesus is Lord and refuse to be baptized? In the NT, believers were immediately baptized and God always allowed them time to obey His command to be baptized in water.

Luke 7

Christ told this woman she was saved by her faith. Then Christ told her to go. Maybe the scholars left out the part about her baptism??:

Moot point - the command by the Lord to "go...teach...baptize" was given AFTER the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That command is applicable to all who would be His disciples on this side of the Cross. This includes you and me.

 

[Stan53]

Well Stan, your referenced website notes the commentary by Albert Barnes. He has no trouble understanding that "baptism now also saves us" and he has no problem understanding that the antecedent "is clearly not the ark, but water". Where does that leave your "EXEGESIS"?

1 Peter 3:21

The like figure whereunto, even baptism, doth also now save us - There are some various readings here in the Greek text, but the sense is not essentially varied. Some have proposed to read (ῷ hō) to which instead of (ὅ ho) which, so as to make the sense “the antitype to which baptism now also saves us.†The antecedent to the relative, whichever word is used, is clearly not the ark, but water; and the idea is, that as Noah was saved by water, so there is a sense in which water is made instrumental in our salvation. The mention of water in the case of Noah, in connection with his being saved, by an obvious association suggested to the mind of the apostle the use of water in our salvation, and hence led him to make the remark about the connection of baptism with our salvation...The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us. ~ Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
​

Well I'm doubtful you actually read ALL that was presented on that webpage, and the link for Albert Barnes, leads to an ad about Calvin's commentary on the Catholic Epistles. Where exactly did you get this quote?

 

[zeke]

Well I'm doubtful you actually read ALL that was presented on that webpage, and the link for Albert Barnes, leads to an ad about Calvin's commentary on the Catholic Epistles. Where exactly did you get this quote?

I don't need to read everything on the webpage to understand the truth taught in God's word regarding baptism and I quoted my source---Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible. Do you agree with Barnes? Do you agree with Peter - does "baptism now save us"? Maybe your sectarian biases are tripping you up.

 

[Stan53]

But Peter is clear - "baptism saves you" as the answer of a good conscience toward God - by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You have the choice to accept this truth but you refuse - why? It is all in black and white - it is all in the Book. You "kick against the pricks".

Yes he does, however it is very possible given Peter's experience in Acts 10, that he may very well be referring to Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Do you believe the Holy Spirit would infill anyone who WASN'T actually saved?

 

[Stan53]

I don't need to read everything on the webpage to understand the truth taught in God's word regarding baptism and I quoted my source---Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible. Do you agree with Barnes? Do you agree with Peter - does "baptism now save us"? Maybe your sectarian biases are tripping you up.

Avoiding my questions only serves to show you do not debate honestly. I read the article and Barnes was NOT in it. If he was mistakenly shown in the reference section, so be it. It would make no sense to have this article in it's context and supply references that contradict it. I agree with some of what Barnes said but NOT his conclusion as it is depicted in what you quoted.

 

[zeke]

Yes he does, however it is very possible given Peter's experience in Acts 10, that he may very well be referring to Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Do you believe the Holy Spirit would infill anyone who WASN'T actually saved?

1 Peter 3 is referring to baptism in water and according to Peter the believer receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit AFTER he repents and is baptized "for the remission of sins". Do you agree?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 2:38 KJV)​

Were your sins "remitted" before or after you were immersed in water?

 

[D4Christ]

Why would one confesses Jesus is Lord and refuse to be baptized? In the NT, believers were immediately baptized and God always allowed them time to obey His command to be baptized in water.


Moot point - the command by the Lord to "go...teach...baptize" was given AFTER the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That command is applicable to all who would be His disciples on this side of the Cross. This includes you and me.

Zeke,

Please read what I typed carefully. I'm not talking about commands per se by Christ. I was only pointing out that the woman in Luke was told to go, as in leave, without Christ telling her that she had to get baptized.

Luke 7, which I quoted most of, is referring to a specific incident in which Christ told a woman she was saved. It does not mention that she was baptized. Now I'm not saying she was never baptized....if she was truly a believer she probably got baptized at some point. My point is that her salvation was sealed before her water baptisim.

Am I to believe that if she left Christ and on her way home she was attacked by bandits and killed she would not enter God's kingdom because she did not get dunked in water before her death?

Blessings,
Dee

 

[zeke]

Avoiding my questions only serves to show you do not debate honestly. I read the article and Barnes was NOT in it. If he was mistakenly shown in the reference section, so be it. It would make no sense to have this article in it's context and supply references that contradict it. I agree with some of what Barnes said but NOT his conclusion as it is depicted in what you quoted.

Am I being "dishonest" for referencing Barnes who was listed in YOUR referenced webpage - how does that work? You may be confused. What part of Barnes' comments do you not agree with?

 

[zeke]

Zeke,

Please read what I typed carefully. I'm not talking about commands per se by Christ. I was only pointing out that the woman in Luke was told to go, as in leave, without Christ telling her that she had to get baptized.

Luke 7, which I quoted most of, is referring to a specific incident in which Christ told a woman she was saved. It does not mention that she was baptized. Now I'm not saying she was never baptized....if she was truly a believer she probably got baptized at some point. My point is that her salvation was sealed before her water baptisim.

Am I to believe that if she left Christ and on her way home she was attacked by bandits and killed she would not enter God's kingdom because she did not get dunked in water before her death?

Blessings,
Dee

I did read your post carefully Dee and your point is still a moot point. The ordinance of baptism instituted and commanded by the Lord was given after the Cross - the woman noted in Luke had her sins forgiven before that ordinance was in place. You and I are bound by the gospel to obey that ordinance.

 

[Stan53]

1 Peter 3 is referring to baptism in water and according to Peter the believer receives the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit AFTER he repents and is baptized "for the remission of sins". Do you agree?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 2:38 KJV)
​

Were your sins "remitted" before or after you were immersed in water?

Did you read Acts 10? Where exactly does Peter say this?

 

[Stan53]

I did read your post carefully Dee and your point is still a moot point. The ordinance of baptism instituted and commanded by the Lord was given after the Cross - the woman noted in Luke had her sins forgiven before that ordinance was in place. You and I are bound by the gospel to obey that ordinance.

Really? Where was that ordinance given?

 

[Stan53]

Am I being "dishonest" for referencing Barnes who was listed in YOUR referenced webpage - how does that work? You may be confused. What part of Barnes' comments do you not agree with?

Yes bringing up a straw man is dishonest in discussion and I am not going to debate you on Barnes rational, it's his, not mine.
Maybe you can stick to the subject of the posts?

 

[zeke]

Did you read Acts 10? Where exactly does Peter say this?

I have read Acts 10 - where did Peter say what? Frame your question, please.

 

[zeke]

Yes bringing up a straw man is dishonest in discussion and I am not going to debate you on Barnes rational, it's his, not mine.
Maybe you can stick to the subject of the posts?

You are dancing my friend. You referenced an outside source that included Barnes. I quoted Barnes and ask why you disagree with your own source. Can you not answer the question?

 

[Stan53]

I have read Acts 10 - where did Peter say what? Frame your question, please.

So you read Acts 10: 44:48 and you don't notice these people received the Bapotism of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water?

Where did Peter say what you said he said in your post # 551?

It's also not very honest to be deliberately obtuse.