Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

The thief on the cross who repented wasn't baptised, yet faith was his path to paradise.

1) the thief is not an example of NT salvation.

2) there is no verse that states that the thief had never been baptized.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We are not saved by getting baptized. We can do many things with water...but the means to eternal salvation is not one of them.

...baptism doth also now save us....,2 Pet 3:21.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree with the "No" answer but I think there is confusion when Mark 16:16 is encountered. As I search for the word Baptized in NKJV and see it in all the context, I don't see how it is a requirement for salvation so much as a gesture of faith and committment.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..."


Does this verse make belief a requirement for salvation?

 

[beforHim]

My very first post here. Being new, I dont want to come off as argumentative, so instead of doing the "quote-engage-discuss" thing, I'll just post my own little ramble, and join in later when people respond. ((also, the ispell for some reason isn't working, so sorry for any misspellings))


I totally believe that baptism is not necessary. But that blatantly disobeying God when it is completely within your power to obey Him- this, to me, definitely wreaks of bad fruit.

The verse in Mark 16
a) technically, we could argue about it's being scripture at all. But I'm guessing no one's willing to go down that route (or am I totally wrong?)
b) The exact phrase "Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved" is then countered with, "he that does not believe is condemned". Seems to me that baptism is, then, not being named as necessary, but that belief is.

The verse in 1 peter
"Baptism now saves you- NOT the washing of the flesh, but the renewal of your heart/mind" (a bit of a paraphrase I know). Seems to me that Peter is trying desperately to say that baptism is NOT about being dunked but about having a renewed mind. Can one have a renewed mind without being dunked? I'd think so.

Jesus being baptized
This confirms my original position. Jesus was, in a sense, in a state of salvation already (I say "in a sense" because I'm obviously not saying that Jesus needed salvation. . .that'd be plain ole silly of me!). But He got baptized anyway. When it was within Jesus power to obey the commands and will of God, he did.

Rom 10- He who confesses "Jesus is Lord" and believes in His heart that God raised Him from the dead, will be saved
This specifically says "Confess...believe...you WILL be saved". This verse is almost never brought up in batismal regegneration debates/discussions. I wonder why not? Seems very relevant to me.


Another question I've always wondered:
What if a guy's accepted Jesus (say an altar call, or to his mentor, or just when reading the Bible in his room at home), and they schedule a batism. The guy puts on the robe, steps down into the water, but then slips down on the last step, hits the edge of the pool and breaks his neck- dead. Is the guy saved? What if the preacher actually dunks him under, and somehow within the two seconds the preacher holds him down, the guy dies. Is he saved? ((Obviously the point here isn't "well was the guy ever saved in the first place"?)).


If God asks us to do something and puts us into the position were not doing it would be blatant disobidience, then we should do it. How much more should we be willing to do something that God has deemed the "official" ritual/rite/symbol of entering His kingdom? Just because it doesn't save us, just because we can be justified even without baptism, doesn't mean we should just choose to be disobidient. I like how Catholics put it- you can be saved via "baptism of desire". if you can't actually be dunked (or even have no knowledge of this thing we Christians call "baptism"), yet are truly repentant and (if you do know about baptism) wish to be baptized, then that's "good enough".

 

[handy]

Good point.
I would only add that according to scripture, to those called or described as Christians, it is normative that they all were baptized.

Why do we, as Christians divide things up into logical boxes and arguments? This whole idea of being baptized as a mandatory step to salvation breeds the same ridged mentality that hedges salvation on our own works and merits.

When I read the scriptures as stories of real people in real situations, I always see baptism as a response to the good news of the gospel of Christ. How in the world do we get from a response to a good thing to an argument over something being mandatory. Wait, let me guess... ritualistic mentality which causes us a mental checklist of things we must do. Go to church on Sunday. Check. Get baptized, Check. Tithe, Check. Boy am I a good person, sure do feel secure about going to heaven now. Glad I'm saved... never mind the wreck I'm in currently. Folks, salvation is as much about today as it is when you die and in that since, baptism is part of your salvation because every time you respond to the gospel, God opens one more door, heals one more heart, wipes away one more tear.

How on earth did we get to this point?

Good post, Jeff...

This is part of the reason why I'd love to see us drop "for salvation" off of any topic in which one asks "Is ______ necessary?"

Asking if something is "necessary" for salvation is basically asking the very Lord Who gave up heaven, came to earth to suffer and die for our sins, "What is the rock bottom minimum I have to do to be saved?"

It certainly doesn't seem to come from the heart of one who is sold out to Jesus.

(Not judging you, 7Ruth, I think you're asking the question as a springboard for theological discussion rather than a personal dilemma.)

Since the perennial thief on the cross has been brought up yet again... I'll repeat:

If you're going to spend your entire walk with Christ here on this earth hanging from a cross, you don't need to be baptized.

But, if you are going to live for Christ... truly live for Him, then your life for Christ starts with getting baptized.

That God is merciful to those like the thief, who cannot in the very short time they have between their glad reception of the gospel to their earthly death only shows us what God's grace is like.

The norm though... for all of us who are not dying on a cross, or sitting in a foxhole about to be bombed, or driving in a car on our way to a baptismal service... for all the rest of us, which is most of us, we need to be baptized...

It IS necessary....

To teach otherwise is to blatantly ignore what the Scriptures clearly teach us on this subject.

 

[Webb]

Stovebolts---You've asked me to respond to your post # 9. Glad to. Your post ended with the question: "How on earth did we get to this point?"

The answer is simple. Some just do not want to believe what Jesus said.

 

[WIP]

Stovebolts---You've asked me to respond to your post # 9. Glad to. Your post ended with the question: "How on earth did we get to this point?"

The answer is simple. Some just do not want to believe what Jesus said.

...or did.

 

[Elijah674]

The thief on the cross who repented wasn't baptised, yet faith was his path to paradise.

Are you posting that he would not have been baptised if he was loosed?
Acts 9:5-6 finds Christ documenting to Saul (Paul to be) what he [MUST DO!] and ibid 17-18?? finds him doing what?

--Elijah

 

[handy]

For salvation you need to be baptised as many times as you need to be circumcised....0 times.

It is desirable to be baptised but not mandatory for salvation.

Apples and oranges, my friend....

First of all, believe it or not, we Christians are circumcised... that's right, we are... during our baptism.

Read... and folks, I truly hope people are actually READING these Scriptures I'm taking the time to post here... read what Paul wrote to the Colossians concerning circumcision:

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Colossians 2:9-12

Baptism is our burial. It is the burial of the old man of sin and the rising up of the new creation. Our baptism is intrinsically a part of our new creation in Christ. This is what the Scriptures clearly teach us baptism is.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Romans 6:1-6

Again, if it's just a matter of time between our reception of the gospel and our physical death, then God is gracious and welcomes us to Paradise...

But to say that we do not need to be baptized is to go against Scripture... rather than say we do not need to be baptized we need tell others what Ananias told Paul:

Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’ Acts 22:16

 

[Webb]

Right on WIP---what Jesus SAID or DID. Its like Jesus and His church, you can't separate the two nor can we separate what He said from what He did.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Have to be? No... there are many Christians who die very soon after coming to belief and never have the opportunity to be baptized.

But... those are exceptions... Any reason for a born again believer not to be baptized?

No... none whatsoever

An issue here is that the bible does not teach "death bed salvation". Nowhere does the bible teach one lying on his death bed can simple 'believe only' and that 'belief only' will remit his sins and he will be saved. This idea would create a multitude of contradictions in the bible.

 

[reba]

The guy on the cross. A weird bed but the idea is there.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The guy on the cross. A weird bed but the idea is there.

From post #41:

1) the thief is not an example of NT salvation.

2) there is no verse that states that the thief had never been baptized.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree with Tina and Dora. Baptism is a response like any other kind of thing we are Called to do. We do it because we are instructed to in a natural response after we've confessed and repented. Like refusing to help the poor, orphans and widows, it is an act of disobedience to refuse this Call.

Acts 2 tells us to be baptized FOR the forgiveness of our sins, and I side with those who would exchange "for" with "because of". So you have, "Be baptized because of the forgiveness of your sins. It's a response to, not a means of, salvation.

EPH 2, "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

I don't mean to devalue the importance or significance of baptism. As it says in Eph 2, believe and have faith. Everything else is an indication of the heart; not a prerequisite for the Life He Gives.

The Greek word eis is found over 1500 times and is never translated 'because'.

There are separate words in the Greek for the words 'for' and 'because'.



If eis means because then that presents some major problems:

Mt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for (eis) the remission of sins. "

Did Jesus shed His blood because sins were already remitted? No, Heb 9:22.

1 Tim 1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to (eis) life everlasting."

Do people believe on Him in order to gain everlasting life or they believe because they already have everlasting life?

 

[Webb]

Hi Bass---At last, someone believes Jesus!

 

[handy]

Hi Bass---At last, someone believes Jesus!

Aw, come on' Webb.... are you trying to tell me that I've been denying Jesus all this time...


Hi to you too, Bass... Like the username...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Bass---At last, someone believes Jesus!

Hi.


Jesus said 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be save'.

I believe what He said.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi to you too, Bass... Like the username...

Hi.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

.

EPH 2, "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

I don't mean to devalue the importance or significance of baptism. As it says in Eph 2, believe and have faith. Everything else is an indication of the heart; not a prerequisite for the Life He Gives.

The Ephesians were saved through faith and their faith included being baptized:

Eph 2:8--------faith>>>>>>>>saved
2Pet3:21------baptism>>>>>>save


Since there is but only ONE way to be saved, no alternatives, the Ephesians' faith MUST have included baptism.

 

[handy]

Now that polite amenities have been observed... let's get at it... :boxing



I don't think we can make an argument that the thief on the cross was saved because he must have been baptized at some point in his past... there is simply nothing in Scriptures to back that up.

I know Mark 16:16 pretty well, it's one of the kid's catechism verses:

He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Mark 16:16

We need to take Jesus at His exact words here.... If one believes and is baptised, one is saved, no questions asked.

However, Jesus doesn't then conversely say, "He who has disbelieved or has never been baptized shall be condemned." That's not what He said.

He said that who has disbelieved shall be condemned. We need to not put words here that aren't here.

This isn't to say that I don't wholeheartedly believe that baptism is necessary. I've spent more than a couple of hours constructing solid posts that have culled all kinds of texts regarding the fact that baptism is absolutely necessary. But, there is no text of any kind that suggests that if someone has never been baptized they are condemned.