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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?
- Thread starter 7ruth
- Start date
Ernest T. Bass
Member
The jailer was never told to "believe only" but he was repentant and baptized, he did not have belief only.
CalledtoServe said:
In the same context Paul said:
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confessionis made unto salvation.
Call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Believe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness
confess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto salvation
"Saved", "unto righteousness" and "unto salvation" are all equivalent terms. Since there is but just one way to be saved that means calling upon the name of the Lord includes believing and confessing.
Peter quoted Joel's prophecy in Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
This prophecy of Joel was fulfilled in Acts 2:38:
Call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
"Saved" and "remission of sins" are equivalent and since there is just one way to be saved that means calling upon the name of the Lord includes repentance and being baptized.
Combining what Paul and Peter both said we have 'calling upon the name of the Lord' means to believe, repent, confess with the mouth and be baptized.
Calling on the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord has said..."And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?". Lk 6:46....and the Lord has said to believe, repent, confess and be baptized, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16
CalledtoServe said:
Jesus said a man must confess Him else Jesus will deny him before God but this confessing does not negate the necessity of being baptized.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Now that polite amenities have been observed... let's get at it... :boxing
I don't think we can make an argument that the thief on the cross was saved because he must have been baptized at some point in his past... there is simply nothing in Scriptures to back that up.
I have never used the thief as proof that baptism is necessary for the bible does not say if the thief was baptized or not. Besides this the thief is NOT an example of NT salvation.
But the other side argues baptism is not necessary for the thief was not baptized. I simply ask what proof can one present from the bible that the thief had never been baptized?
Again, the thief is not an example of NT salvation so the thief is a bad argument anyway. Rom 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." At the time the thief was promised paradise, Christ had not yet died much less been raised from the dead, so the thief could not have the NT belief that saves which Paul requires in this verse. At the time the thief was promised paradise, he and Christ were both alive and under the OT law. Acts 2:38 came into effect some time later after the thief died. We today who live after Acts 2:38 are accountable to it.
handy said:
Mk 16:16 is a compound sentence. The first part deals with salvation the second with condemnation. If one desires to be saved look at the first part and believe and be baptized. If one desires to be lost, look to the second part and simply not believe. One does not have to both not believe and not be baptized to be lost, unbelief is sufficient.
Moreover, in the first part, the conjunction "and" ties belief to baptism making them inseparable and of equal importance. This means baptism is just as necessary to salvation as belief is.
Lastly, in the first part Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized. No one can be scripturally baptized without first believing. So when Jesus said "he that believeth not" that phrase automatically includes not being baptized.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Mk16:16 is not just a suggestion.
Achieve salvation?
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Salvation is a free gift, a free gift that comes with conditions such as faith. It could be that in the OP, he meant that when one meets/achieves these conditions he then gains or obtains the free gift.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Odd verse 16 says? He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth and is baptized not shall be damned.
17 and 18 are just as literal right? If one is a believer then they have done those things right? if they haven't done them they are not a believer ?
I believe a believer will want to be baptized. For me if at all possible in one of God's rivers. What is baptism? in the simple form is it dunking? in a river? baptismal ? Sprinkling?
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Odd verse 16 says? He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth and is baptized not shall be damned.
17 and 18 are just as literal right? If one is a believer then they have done those things right? if they haven't done them they are not a believer ?
I believe a believer will want to be baptized. For me if at all possible in one of God's rivers. What is baptism? in the simple form is it dunking? in a river? baptismal ? Sprinkling?
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Faith comes from God
E
Elijah674
Guest
Now that polite amenities have been observed... let's get at it... :boxing
I don't think we can make an argument that the thief on the cross was saved because he must have been baptized at some point in his past... there is simply nothing in Scriptures to back that up.
I know Mark 16:16 pretty well, it's one of the kid's catechism verses:
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Mark 16:16
We need to take Jesus at His exact words here.... If one believes and is baptised, one is saved, no questions asked.
However, Jesus doesn't then conversely say, "He who has disbelieved or has never been baptized shall be condemned." That's not what He said.
He said that who has disbelieved shall be condemned. We need to not put words here that aren't here.
This isn't to say that I don't wholeheartedly believe that baptism is necessary. I've spent more than a couple of hours constructing solid posts that have culled all kinds of texts regarding the fact that baptism is absolutely necessary. But, there is no text of any kind that suggests that if someone has never been baptized they are condemned.
Hi!
OK: Lets ask you about being baptised this way then? {PERSONALLY!
] Lets say that with your todays conviction + WISDOM! (yes we believe that you have 'spiritual wisdom) You had just been told in accordance to Matt. 28:20's verse of Christ that you needed to be baptised?? Now, what would you do according to your above quote of..'But, there is no text of any kind that suggests that if someone has never been baptized they are condemned.[/QUOTE]
Pleas answer the question for the[MOTIVE] of your answer for others to understand that we SURELY are 'setting examples for'. And thanks in advance!
---Elijah
heymikey80
Member
Hm. It doesn't read that way at His word. Greek indicates "the one believing and being baptized will be saved." This doesn't appear as a "Be baptized" imperitive.
Maybe Mt 28:19 is what you're indicating? But there it's not an argument for salvation -- it's a command to make disciples, baptizing them.
Believing Jesus is important; but believing doesn't demand that every command of Jesus be the cause of our salvation. Faith alone saves; the faith that saves is not alone.
heymikey80
Member
... not the putting away of the filth of the flesh ... 1 Pt 3:21
E
Elijah674
Guest
Christ Commanded...
Matt. 28:20 verse that you missed, huh!
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,even unto the end of the world. Amen.
heymikey80
Member
Nope, I didn't miss that. What I did miss is where Jesus is saying, "Because you do what I command, you will be saved."
Where's that again? In point of fact, I'm missing Jesus' reference to eternal salvation in Matthew 28:18-20. Could you help with where "saved" or "salvation" is listed as the result of teaching all nations, making disciples, baptizing?
It reads to me like an encouragement: "You go and do these things -- teach, make disciples, baptize -- knowing I, Jesus, I am with you everywhere and everywhen you are." It actually seems to be the reverse assertion, to me: "I'm with you -- so be encouraged: go make disciples."
handy
Member
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Odd verse 16 says? He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth and is baptized not shall be damned.
17 and 18 are just as literal right? If one is a believer then they have done those things right? if they haven't done them they are not a believer ?
I believe a believer will want to be baptized. For me if at all possible in one of God's rivers. What is baptism? in the simple form is it dunking? in a river? baptismal ? Sprinkling?
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Reba, I agree... a believer will want to be baptized... well, perhaps we could say should want to be baptized if presented with a proper understanding of what baptism is. I'm not sure how many are being taught that understanding anymore.
As to Mark 16, again it's good to look at the full context of things.
This is after Jesus has risen and He is giving the disciples the great commission.
Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, “ Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.†Mark 16:14-18
It's interesting that the context starts out with Jesus reproaching the disciples for their own unbelief. After the reproach, He commissions the disciples to go out into the world and bring the gospel to all. He tells the disciples how to know those who have believed, they will be baptized... unbelievers will remain condemned. He then gives signs that will accompany the believers, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, picking up serpents and not dying if drinking poison, healings...
Confusion comes when people except each believer to exhibit each sign... but that wasn't what Jesus meant... We can know this is true because we know not all have the gifts of tongues. But, we also know that, after the Holy Spirit came upon the Church and the Church went forth into the world, these different signs were manifested wherever the apostles took the gospel message.
That gospel message though, we need to keep in mind, included the exhortation to "repent and be baptized"... Baptism was the expected result of all who believed the message and repented.
Here is a good thing to consider:
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, “ Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?†And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days. Acts 10:44-48
I believe this passage is hugely significant when it comes to the subject of water baptism. Here we see that the Holy Spirit came upon all who were listening to Peter preach, surprising the circumcised believers who were with Peter because many of them were Gentiles. That these believers had the Spirit is not in doubt because they were exhibiting the very signs Jesus said would accompany those who believed.
So, here we have obviously Spirit-filled believers... believers already baptized by the Spirit... what is the response? Peter ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
handy
Member
Hi!
'But, there is no text of any kind that suggests that if someone has never been baptized they are condemned.
Pleas answer the question for the[MOTIVE] of your answer for others to understand that we SURELY are 'setting examples for'. And thanks in advance!
---Elijah
Oh assuredly, all who respond to the Gospel need to be baptized. There is no doubt about that.
I do believe that God, in His mercy and in His position of always judging the heart, gives grace to those who, through no fault of their own, are not baptized when death suddenly comes upon them.
I believe this is what the thief on the cross teaches us... I have heard several times now, the idea that the thief must have been previously baptized... but that is adding conjecture and assumption to the Scriptures. This thief believed Jesus and recognized his own sin... and was promised Paradise that very day.
But, as I've said, unless one is planning on spending their entire walk with Jesus on this earth hanging from a cross, one must be baptized.
heymikey80
Member
I like the way you put this.
My understanding is also this ... the way most verses seem to read to me is that faith in Jesus brings salvation, and faith in Jesus results in a desire to learn from Him and to please Him. When that desire arrives at Jesus' teaching and Christian teaching on baptism, it typically results in some practice of baptism.
So faith --> salvation
And faith --> baptism
And faith --> desire for Christ
And faith --> desire for learning
And faith --> desire to submit to Christ's teaching
It's interested me too that Mt 28:18-20 places baptizing before wider teaching, and part of "make disciples". That wording doesn't have to be a time order, but it's a structure that kind of jumps out at me.
handy
Member
I think the structure of Matthew 28 is important... and it certainly is born out in the Acts... that baptism was the first response of those who believed, the first step on the journey of discipleship.
It's the Church that has done the real damage here... I cannot fathom why so many churches make baptizing this drawn out affair... having to take classes, then having to have special "baptismal" services... it's certainly not the way baptism was shown in the Scriptures...
Just the other day on this forum, I noticed a poster made the comment, "I need to stop smoking so that I can be baptized."
When we moved to this little community way, way out here, we did go to the church... members of this community had been going to this church for years and once when we were having Bible study together, I was amazed to find that the church had never baptized anyone. Well over half of the people at the Bible study had never been baptized and those who had been, had been baptized somewhere else.
In the Scriptures, the gospel was preached, folks believed, repented, were baptized.
It really was that simple. No three week class on the subject, no special baptismal services with potluck afterward... believe, repent, baptized.
We need to get back to that.
It's the Church that has done the real damage here... I cannot fathom why so many churches make baptizing this drawn out affair... having to take classes, then having to have special "baptismal" services... it's certainly not the way baptism was shown in the Scriptures...
Just the other day on this forum, I noticed a poster made the comment, "I need to stop smoking so that I can be baptized."
When we moved to this little community way, way out here, we did go to the church... members of this community had been going to this church for years and once when we were having Bible study together, I was amazed to find that the church had never baptized anyone. Well over half of the people at the Bible study had never been baptized and those who had been, had been baptized somewhere else.
In the Scriptures, the gospel was preached, folks believed, repented, were baptized.
It really was that simple. No three week class on the subject, no special baptismal services with potluck afterward... believe, repent, baptized.
We need to get back to that.