The water WAS destruction and the Ark was a typification of Jesus, who saves us from destruction. The water doesn't save us.
Where does Peter say this? It's not in the text. Eisegesis...
This kind of condescension doesn't really sit well with me and the topic is, Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?
Don't dish it out if you can't take it:
"I can't help it if you read into these passages what you believe beforehand. There's a word for doing that, and it is called eisegesis. You may not even know you are doing it."
"You obviously don't get Peter's example or exactly what He is talking about."
"This sounds like a response from someone who really doesn't know what the BIBLE in it's entirety, has to say on the subject. It's called EXEGESIS, you should try it."
Calling me a heretic at the same time will only result in one thing...I'll let you figure out what.
I never called you a heretic, I said the doctrine of sola-fide was heretical. Don't you feel the same way about what you would consider "works salvation"? How about the doctrine of salvific baptism? Don't you consider both of these heretical? Is your skin really this thin or are you simply looking for an excuse to beg off?
You pick ONE verse, take it out of context, that being the whole NT, and tell me I can't see the plain words?
The plain words say "baptism, which now saves you". I don't have to twist my brain into a pretzel to in an attempt to make them fit my preconceived man-made notions. I can just accept the entire NT at face value.
Shall I give you some plain words? Try Luke 7:50, or Romans 10:9-10, or how about reading Matthew 28:19-20. If you like Mark so much how about Mark 13:13? We can ignore 16:16 because apparently in 13:13 we will ONLY be saved when we make it to the end, so why get baptized at all? So I guess Jesus contradicted Himself because He says one thing in 13:13 and another in 16:16.
When people cherry pick verses instead of taking the WHOLE Bible, and make their stand on ONE verse, well as I've already told one person on this thread, read Luke 18:18.
You seem to have a different set of rules for yourself and others. When you bring up single verses that speak of salvation by faith, that's called "rightly dividing the word of truth", when I, or others, bring up verses that teach salvation by good deeds done in faith, you cry "cherry pick"!!!
Where do any of these verses teach salvation by faith alone? Where do they tell us we are not justified by baptism? Keeping the commandments? Acts of charity? They say we are saved by faith, not faith alone. And they say NOTHING about what is required of the believer going forward or whether we can lose that initial justification.
LOL, you actually have to take verses and properly exegete them in order to practise exegesis.
Should I get indignant about this "condescension"?
As Paul was called to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, Romans 11:13 and Gal 2:8, His reference to works is based on the common understanding of the Gentiles. They no more understood Mosaic Law than you do.
Wow...And there's some more arrogance. Again, two sets of rules. It's obviously OK for you to talk down to me, but then you complain when it comes back?
If you're looking for the context of Paul's "faith vs works" teachings, you need to read Acts 15. The first heresy within the early Church was that there were "Judaizers" who were teaching GENTILES they had to be CIRCUMCISED according to the LAW OF MOSES. It was such a problem, the Church called a council to deal with it and Paul went and pleaded his case. He (rightly) taught that circumcision (or the Law) didn't save, faith did. For Paul to be teaching this, had NOTHING to do with whether the Gentiles "understood" the Law or not. All they needed to understand was there were people who thought that they needed to become Jews before they could become Christians.
Eph 2:8-10, directed to Gentiles, Paul uses 'works' twice in these passages.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. The Greek word for works here is ergon and I'll let you look up the meaning so you can practise your exegesis.
It's a good thing I have thick skin, or I might get offended due to all this arrogance. The word is the same, what's your point? Let's keep reading...
"
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the
uncircumcision by what is called the
circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ."
As I said, this, LIKE ALL THE OTHERS (except one), is in the DIRECT CONTEXT of circumcision. Paul's teaching has NOTHING to do with baptism. Again, you are reading your man-made doctrine into the text.
It means the same thing in both places. You know there are a couple of cults that believe in works to accomplish their salvation...Mormons and JW's. You wouldn't happen to be one of them would you?
My avatar is the Blessed Virgin Mary, I think you can tell by that, I'm Catholic. More condescension... You can attempt to frame the argument as "works to accomplish their salvation", but that would be a straw-man, as the Catholic Church teaches salvation by Grace alone. This is why we believe that infant baptism saves. Grace alone. You sola-fide advocates are the ones who believe in "works salvation", after all, you MUST "accept Jesus" or "confess with your lips", or whatever, to be saved. How is this NOT a "work" when EVERYTHING ELSE IS?
Yes this is true, exactly as Paul explained it in Romans 10:9-13; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.†12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€
Don't see much here about water in this statement of Paul's.
Don't see much about water in Eph. 2:8-10 either, but that didn't stop you from bringing it up. Different rules and more erroneous complaints.
What you are responding to here is Matt. 12:37,38 which says:
"I tell you, on the day of judgement men will render account for
every careless word they utter; 37
for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:37,38)
This is typical of your "exegesis", Stan. You ignore HALF of the teaching. Jesus says by your words you will be justified, ans by your words you will be condemned. Not by your lack of words, not by NOT confessing Jesus as Lord,
by your actual words. The words you speak effect your salvation, for good OR BAD. So, how will you twist to get out of this one? I have no doubt you can do it. :biglol
Yes, well again you cherry pick verses OUT of context. Read verses 16-30 to really see what is going on here. It wasn't just keeping the commandments, it was letting go of what was at the very heart of this man, to follow Jesus, his wealth.
Not exactly what I would call "Rightly dividing the Word of truth".
A person asks Jesus what he must do to inherit Eternal Life and Jesus' answer is "keep the commandments". By "rightly dividing", you must mean ONLY looking at it through the prism of sola-fide. This is a simple story with a simple message, just like "baptism, which now saves you". You have to make it something it's not to defend this heresy.
Again, CONTEXT. Nothing to do with salvation here, nor water baptism. Your red letters in the first line are misleading to say the least, whether deliberately or not I cannot say. Verse 21 properly reads; Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
In any event these verses are NOT germane to this topic.
OK, have it your way. "Considered righteous", just like in Galatians 2 and Romans 4. So, how is it Gal. and Rom. are concerning salvation, yet James is not? The reason we can be sure these verses concern salvation, outside of the obvious words you are trying to twist, is that James starts out saying it is. "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works?
Can his faith save him?"
More "rightly dividing", I suppose?
LOL, yes OK another way to get saved, have babies. Give me a break. This truly shows your complete lack of understanding of how to even read the Bible, let alone properly exegete it.
Go ahead and "properly exegete" it, then? You tell me what it means. And try to use the actual words of the verse and try not to just jump to Romans or some other place you THINK proves your point, while ignoring the actual words of the verse.
This verse points to the FACT that we are NOT saved by faith alone, along with the other verses I posted.
Well you haven't actually presented ANY facts. I suggest you actually read Hebrews 11 to see what FAITH is. Salvation IS a ONE time event.
I have read Hebrews 11, thanks. Here is what I found.
"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go."
1) Since Heb. 11 is all about "saving faith", we see that Abraham was justified, or saved, when he left Haran.
2) Paul says he was justified, or declared righteous, when he "believed God".
3) James says he was justified or declared righteous, when he "offered Isaac on the altar".
Abraham was justified three times, that we know of. If we are "rightly dividing the word", we see that you are wrong, that justification is a PROCESS, not a one time event.
I submit to God's word daily as I RIGHTLY divide it, by His Holy Spirit.
And if we disagree with you are we disagreeing with the Holy Spirit, or is it possible you could be wrong?
Take a look at Matthew 17:20; Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.â€
Seems pretty clear to me here that FAITH is ALL it takes to accomplish this, or do you think there is some kind of 'work' we need to throw in here?
So, how many verses do you require to prove the doctrine of sola-fide false, yet this ONE verse "seems pretty clear"? Again, different rules.
