Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Stan53]

You are dancing my friend. You referenced an outside source that included Barnes. I quoted Barnes and ask why you disagree with your own source. Can you not answer the question?

I didn't reference that, YOU did and now you use it to bring this discussion OFF track.
Barnes was NOT in my source, ONLY his name. Again you deflect.

 

[D4Christ]

I did read your post carefully Dee and your point is still a moot point. The ordinance of baptism instituted and commanded by the Lord was given after the Cross - the woman noted in Luke had her sins forgiven before that ordinance was in place. You and I are bound by the gospel to obey that ordinance.

Really? I thought John the Baptist was chosen by God to announce the coming of His Son. And I thought it was John that instituted Baptism before Christ even came on the scene.

Mark 1

1 This is the Good News about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God. It began 2 just as the prophet Isaiah had written:

“Look, I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
and he will prepare your way.
3 He is a voice shouting in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord’s coming!
Clear the road for him!’
4 This messenger was John the Baptist. He was in the wilderness and preached that people should be baptized to show that they had repented of their sins and turned to God to be forgiven. 5 All of Judea, including all the people of Jerusalem, went out to see and hear John. And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River. 6 His clothes were woven from coarse camel hair, and he wore a leather belt around his waist. For food he ate locusts and wild honey.7 John announced: “Someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not even worthy to stoop down like a slave and untie the straps of his sandals. 8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit!”

Baptism was initiated by God through John before Christ's death and resurrection.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[zeke]

So you read Acts 10: 44:48 and you don't notice these people received the Bapotism of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water?

God is no respecter of person – salvation is the same for Jew and Gentile under the NT. Peter was instructed to speak unto Cornelius "words whereby he would be saved" (Acts 11:14) because "faith comes by hearing" and those words preached by Peter included the command to be baptized in water.

And [Peter] commanded [Cornelius and his house] to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. (Acts 10:48 (NKJV)​

Cornelius, like Paul was commanded to “be baptized†to wash away his sin.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
(Act 22:16 KJV)​

The pattern is believe and be baptized and then comes salvation. The Bible does not say ‘believe and be saved and then be baptized’.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
(Mar 16:16 KJV)​

 

[zeke]

I didn't reference that, YOU did and now you use it to bring this discussion OFF track.
Barnes was NOT in my source, ONLY his name. Again you deflect.

Barnes' name was listed in your referenced source - Barnes disagrees with your position. Oops.

 

[Webb]

d4Christ -- John's baptism was superceded by the baptism of Christ, read Acts 19.

 

[zeke]

And I thought it was John that instituted Baptism before Christ even came on the scene.

The ordinance of Christian baptism - in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit was instituted and commanded by the Lord AFTER the Resurrection. That is the baptism we are to submit to. Have you been baptized in water?

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Mat 28:18-20 KJV)​

 

[Stan53]

God is no respecter of person – salvation is the same for Jew and Gentile under the NT. Peter was instructed to speak unto Cornelius "words whereby he would be saved" (Acts 11:14) because "faith comes by hearing" and those words preached by Peter included the command to be baptized in water.

And [Peter] commanded [Cornelius and his house] to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. (Acts 10:48 (NKJV)
​

Cornelius, like Paul was commanded to “be baptized†to wash away his sin.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
(Act 22:16 KJV)
​

The pattern is believe and be baptized and then comes salvation. The Bible does not say ‘believe and be saved and then be baptized’.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
(Mar 16:16 KJV)
​

Not what you said in your post #551. Even in this post you don't answer the direct question, you just obfuscate.
Those Gentiles were Baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water. You have already agreed that only saved people can be baptized in the Holy Spirit, so apparently these people were saved by ONLY believeing Peter's message and accepting Christ. The water baptism happened AFTER the Holy Spirit baptism. Pretty clear that Water Baptism DOESN'T save, ONLY Christ does.

 

[Stan53]

The ordinance of Christian baptism - in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit was instituted and commanded by the Lord AFTER the Resurrection. That is the baptism we are to submit to. Have you been baptized in water?

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Mat 28:18-20 KJV)
​

This is true, BUT, it is NOT a condition of salvation.

 

[Stan53]

Barnes' name was listed in your referenced source - Barnes disagrees with your position. Oops.

Stop acting like a child Zeke. Debate like an adult.

 

[zeke]

Not what you said in your post #551. Even in this post you don't answer the direct question, you just obfuscate.
Those Gentiles were Baptized in the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized in water. You have already agreed that only saved people can be baptized in the Holy Spirit, so apparently these people were saved by ONLY believeing Peter's message and accepting Christ. The water baptism happened AFTER the Holy Spirit baptism.

The Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius before Peter completed delivering the "words whereby he would be saved". God was demonstrating to the Jews that He accepted the Gentile as well as Jew in the kingdom of God - God is not a respecter of persons. Peter completed his message from God to Cornelius that day and that message included the command they be baptized in water – a baptism “for the forgiveness of sins†(Acts 2:38).

Cornelius was saved via faith, repentance and baptism just as those Jews were saved via faith, repentance and baptism on the day of Pentecost. Easy concept.

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 NKJV)​

Pretty clear that Water Baptism DOESN'T save, ONLY Christ does.

What is 'pretty clear' is you are in conflict with Peter who clearly stated "baptism now save us". Why? Again, the blood of Christ completely and finally saves our souls and baptism saves as the answer of a good conscience toward God - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You continue to kick against the pricks my friend.

 

[zeke]

This is true, BUT, it is NOT a condition of salvation.

You are mistaken again - Paul's sins were not washed away by the blood of Christ until he was baptized in water...

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16 NKJV)
​

 

[D4Christ]

d4Christ -- John's baptism was superceded by the baptism of Christ, read Acts 19.

Then why is it only unbelief that affects salvation. Mark 16:16 states,

16 Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

Note it doesn't say anyone who refuses to get baptized.
And why does Ephesians 2 back this up?

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

If baptism was necessary for your salvation to be activated then this statement should have read, "God saved you by his grace when you believed and got baptised."

Same thing here,

Luke 8

11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is God’s word. 12 The seeds that fell on the footpath represent those who hear the message, only to have the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved.

Imho, baptism is an outward act performed by believers who are saved when they believe in and confess Christ. Therefore most believers want to perform baptism to demonstrate openly their belief in Christ.

But I will not believe that someone who crys out to God and confesses their belief will not enter into God's kingdom if they don't get baptised. For many cry out to God with their last breath and some may confess in places where water baptism is not available (ie. prisons, hospitals, etc). I do not for one minute believe that those unable to get to a water baptism are ignored by God.

Specifically when scriptures state it is our belief which saves us.....

Romans 4

And because of Abraham’s faith, God counted him as righteous. 23 And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded 24 for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Stan53]

The Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius before Peter completed delivering the "words whereby he would be saved". God was demonstrating to the Jews that He accepted the Gentile as well as Jew in the kingdom of God - God is not a respecter of persons. Peter completed his message from God to Cornelius that day and that message included the command they be baptized in water – a baptism “for the forgiveness of sins†(Acts 2:38).

Oh so now you say the WORDS saved them, NOT baptism. You seem a liitle conflicted, or is this just plain vascilation?

Acts 10:43-46; All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.â€
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Acts 10:47-48 happens; Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.†48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Obviously they couldn't receive the Holy Spirit if they weren't actually saved and the fact that they did BEFORE they were baptized in water proves salvation does NOT come by water baptism. Twist all you want, you can't get away from this FACT.

What is 'pretty clear' is you are in conflict with Peter who clearly stated "baptism now save us". Why? Again, the blood of Christ completely and finally saves our souls and baptism saves as the answer of a good conscience toward God - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You continue to kick against the pricks my friend.

No brother, I am in conflict with you, unfortunately, as I would rather NOT be.
As all Biblical authors, I trust Peter implicitly and recognize, in the CONTEXT of the entire body of our canon, that he is inspired of God. What I do, is NOT put ALL my eggs in one basket, as you seem to do. The message is clear in the NT about what water baptism is, it is our initial indication of our committment and obedience to Christ, when we accepted His sacrifice and redemption of our lives.

 

[Stan53]

You are mistaken again - Paul's sins were not washed away by the blood of Christ until he was baptized in water...

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16 NKJV)
​

I've dealt with this already, and you are deliberately taking this incidence OUT of context. Paul was not getting water baptized here. He was giving in to the Judaic influence happening in Jerusalem. A fact you would know if you didn't cherry pick but read scripture within it's context.

 

[zeke]

But I will not believe that someone who crys out to God and confesses their belief will not enter into God's kingdom if they don't get baptised.

Well Dee – it doesn’t matter what you and I believe – it matters what the word of God says and His word is clear – the promise of salvation is given to the one who believes and is baptized – the one who disbelieves is condemned already whether baptized or not baptized.

If you have never been baptized I would say to you…

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.​

 

[zeke]

I've dealt with this already, and you are deliberately taking this incidence OUT of context. Paul was not getting water baptized here. He was giving in to the Judaic influence happening in Jerusalem. A fact you would know if you didn't cherry pick but read scripture within it's context.

You are mistaken yet again my friend. The baptism noted in Acts 22:16 is the kind that gets you wet. Your understanding of baptism is limited.

Acts 22:16
Arise, and be baptized - Take now the profession of Christ’s faith most solemnly upon thee, by being baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Wash away thy sins, etc. - Let this washing of thy body represent to thee the washing away of thy sins: and know that this washing away of sin can be received only by invoking the name of the Lord. ~ Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible​

 

[zeke]

No brother, I am in conflict with you, unfortunately, as I would rather NOT be.

Wrong again - you are in conflict with the inspired writer - Peter says "baptism now save us" - you say it is not essential to the gospel of Christ. Your dogma does not trump the word of God.

 

[handy]

I've dealt with this already, and you are deliberately taking this incidence OUT of context. Paul was not getting water baptized here. He was giving in to the Judaic influence happening in Jerusalem. A fact you would know if you didn't cherry pick but read scripture within it's context.

I'm curious as to why you would think that Paul isn't referring to his water baptism here. He's recounting the whole "road to Damascus" event from Acts 9:

10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!â€
“Yes, Lord,†he answered.

11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.â€

13 “Lord,†Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.â€

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.â€

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.†18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Acts 9

What "Judiac influence" in Jerusalem are you speaking of? What Paul is referring to in Acts 22 took place in Damascus, not Jerusalem... and I see no reason to think of the baptism that verse 18 speaks of as anything other than Paul's water baptism.

 

[Stan53]

Wrong again - you are in conflict with the inspired writer - Peter says "baptism now save us" - you say it is not essential to the gospel of Christ. Your dogma does not trump the word of God.

Again you mislead. What I said was it is not essential to salvation. Christ saves ONLY. You understanding of the scripture here is flawed. Probably explains why you can't provide more scripture that supports your assertion.

 

[Stan53]

I'm curious as to why you would think that Paul isn't referring to his water baptism here. He's recounting the whole "road to Damascus" event from Acts 9:

10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!â€
“Yes, Lord,†he answered.

11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.â€

13 “Lord,†Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.â€

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.â€

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.†18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Acts 9

What "Judiac influence" in Jerusalem are you speaking of? What Paul is referring to in Acts 22 took place in Damascus, not Jerusalem... and I see no reason to think of the baptism that verse 18 speaks of as anything other than Paul's water baptism.

Sorry Dora, my apologies. I mixed this up with Acts 21"17-26, where Paul was persuaded to do purification rites for some converts. My mistake. I shouldn't listen to my baseball game when I'm trying to answer questions.