Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Jethro Bodine]

I think God knows the difference between a reaction out of human weakness and a change of heart.

...even when we don't.

The story of Samson is somewhat related to this. He was so sure of the power of God he had. But one day he woke up expecting it to be there for him and learned it was not. He had eventually forfeited it through a continual decision to indulge the flesh. It happened overnight, but it didn't come to that overnight.

 

[WIP]

Agreed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you're not open to questioning your sources then your going to have difficulties finding the truth.

This is why I talk about honestly looking at the plain words of scripture. We have to find the courage to question what we've been taught by letting the Bible discern what we've been taught, instead of letting what we've been taught discern scripture.

Though we don't know the names of any of the Galatians, they were real, Spirit-filled people who were warned that if they fell from the grace of Christ and became slaves to trying to be justified by another way other than Christ, they would forfeit the promise, because slaves to the flesh do not, and can not, inherit the Master's estate. But OSAS says that 1) it's impossible to fall from grace once you've really been saved by grace, and 2) if you do 'fall from grace' you were never 'in grace' to begin with. The Galatians show us neither of these OSAS teachings are true.

It's time for another reformation. The church has been ignoring the plain words of scripture far too long. Even if it means droves of people leave the church, and big church budgets go bust, we need to contend for the truth again in the church.

Not directed at any one person. I understand we all, myself included, innocently go with what we've been taught and have lots of respect for our leaders who taught us these things (who themselves have great respect for who taught them). But it's time to get back to the truth.

 

[JLB]

This is why I talk about honestly looking at the plain words of scripture. We have to find the courage to question what we've been taught by letting the Bible discern what we've been taught, instead of letting what we've been taught discern scripture.

Though we don't know the names of any of the Galatians, they were real, Spirit-filled people who were warned that if they fell from the grace of Christ and became slaves to trying to be justified by another way other than Christ, they would forfeit the promise, because slaves to the flesh do not, and can not, inherit the Master's estate. But OSAS says that 1) it's impossible to fall from grace once you've really been saved by grace, and 2) if you do 'fall from grace' you were never 'in grace' to begin with. The Galatians show us neither of these OSAS teachings are true.

It's time for another reformation. The church has been ignoring the plain words of scripture far too long. Even if it means droves of people leave the church, and big church budgets go bust, we need to contend for the truth again in the church.

Not directed at any one person. I understand we all, myself included, innocently go with what we've been taught and have lots of respect for our leaders who taught us these things (who themselves have great respect for who taught them). But it's time to get back to the truth.

 

[Chopper]

Besides John the Baptist, who did not need to be born again, what Biblical support is there for these people who are predetermined to be believers while others are not?

Jethro, If you remember the thread on end times and all the theology that was discussed about pre-trib etc. The Calvinist view was discussed in great detail. I am not a five point Calvinist because I don't believe that God predestines some to be lost! No Way! God, throughout history has always had a remnant of believers. This remnant came about by His choice before the foundation of the earth. It really is as simple as that. They are the elect.

Now the question is asked, what about the rest of mankind that God did not choose before the foundations of the earth. The remnant of God is supposed to witness the God they serve, to the world of unbelievers. Because God is not willing that ANY perish. God knew that Israel would drop the ball in being a witness to the world. So, before the foundation of the world, He predetermined a group of faithful followers to do the job, thus the remnant....Much like the 144,000 in Revelation.

Now, the remnant, or elect, is responsible for demonstrating God's love to the Nations. I refer to it as a "General Call of the Gospel". All people, (unsaved) are to hear the Gospel by the remnant. As people are saved, they join the "elect" and join in on spreading the Gospel. The major difference in the two are, the original predetermined remnant (elect) can never loose their Salvation (much like the 144,000) BUT those who come through the (general call) are subject to all the "if's" found in the NT.

There will be an apostasy (2 Thess 2) whereby some believers who come thru the General Call will desert their belief in Jesus and rebel. Jesus spoke about those who said "we prophesied in your Name, did miracles in your Name etc. etc. In other words, GET LOST.

I am a 4 point Calvanist. because I believe in a General Call of the Gospel to those Who Jesus want's to come into His great Company of Elect.

 

[reba]

we best get back to topic

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, If you remember the thread on end times and all the theology that was discussed about pre-trib etc. The Calvinist view was discussed in great detail.

Actually I did not indulge that thread. I was introduced to your four point Calvinist view in the predestination thread if I'm not mistaken.

I am not a five point Calvinist because I don't believe that God predestines some to be lost! No Way!

I don't believe that either. No more than I believe that he pre-made some to be believers (other than the 'John the Baptists' of history--if there was/is more than one of them).

What I do believe, and which is what I thought you would agree with is that God, knowing beginning to end and everything in between, can purposely bring someone in the world who he knows ahead of time will believe or not believe, and place them in the circumstances he wants them to be in in order to fulfill his purposes using their own will. Judas being a very good example of this.

God knew that Judas would not believe. He didn't make him that way--as you apparently agree with. He knew what kind of soil he would be--soil that would reject the truth about Jesus. Knowing that, he placed him in history in such a time and place to serve his predetermined plan of turning the author of life over to death--using Judas' own choice to not believe to do it.

If God can ordain the time and circumstances of the person who he knows ahead of time will choose to not believe why is it unreasonable that God can do this with people who will believe?

God, throughout history has always had a remnant of believers. This remnant came about by His choice before the foundation of the earth. It really is as simple as that. They are the elect.

They came about at the time and place and circumstances of his choosing, not came about as a result of his choice to manufacture them as believers.

Now the question is asked, what about the rest of mankind that God did not choose before the foundations of the earth. The remnant of God is supposed to witness the God they serve, to the world of unbelievers. Because God is not willing that ANY perish. God knew that Israel would drop the ball in being a witness to the world. So, before the foundation of the world, He predetermined a group of faithful followers to do the job, thus the remnant....Much like the 144,000 in Revelation.

This is where I think this division in elect--those who are predetermined by design to be among the elect, and those who are not predetermined to be a part of the elect, but can be by their own choice--fails in the Biblical support department. I need to see Biblical support that defines these two groups. Don't forget, I'm not against the concept altogether. As I say, John the Baptist is one of these pre-manufactured servants of God. But as for the rest of us? I need Bible evidence. I don't think even Paul could be considered pre-manufactured to believe.

Bottom line is, the remnant is simply those who God knew ahead of time would believe of their own choice whom he has purposely dispersed throughout history and reserved for himself to represent him in the earth at any one moment in time. He's always had a remnant (Romans 11?), not because he manufactured them to be that, but because he placed them in history at the right time to be that for him.

....the original predetermined remnant (elect) can never loose their Salvation (much like the 144,000) BUT those who come through the (general call) are subject to all the "if's" found in the NT.

There will be an apostasy (2 Thess 2) whereby some believers who come thru the General Call will desert their belief in Jesus and rebel. Jesus spoke about those who said "we prophesied in your Name, did miracles in your Name etc. etc. In other words, GET LOST.

Okay, we can conclude then that you are non-OSAS...except for the few that you say were made to be believers and have no choice in the matter, correct? If so, for the sake of this forum, where have you developed your non-OSAS views from in the Bible for whom non-OSAS applies? OSASer's need to hear it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Move over....

(Thank you, JLB)

 

[Kathi]

I agree. That site is not to be trusted.

There are many on this website that do not like Gotquestions for some reason.I will not quote from that site any longer on Christianforums.

 

[Deborah13]

There are many on this website that do not like Gotquestions for some reason.I will not quote from that site any longer on Christianforums.

I think you should feel free to quote from any Christian site and that is a Christian site. As I told you I have used that site and have quoted from it before on these forums. But just like the rest of us they are not infallible.
I have a couple of ministries I like very much but they are not infallible either and I don't always agree with them.
But what I do agree with I post and if I post in a debate thread I know that my belief in what they said may be challenged. For me that is a good thing. It makes me really make a knowledgeable decision from reading others points of view.
However, if someone goes over the top in my view, too personal, my tendency is to ignore them. I don't like threads being closed for this reason.

 

[Gary]

There are many on this website that do not like Gotquestions for some reason.I will not quote from that site any longer on Christianforums.

Not to be rude, but that should tell you something. If you have faith in that site, use it. I personally don't rely on anyone else's word, I prefer to do my own research. By searching the scriptures I come to my own understanding of the Word, not someone else's.

But that's just me.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...I prefer to do my own research. By searching the scriptures I come to my own understanding of the Word, not someone else's.
.

I prefer the same thing.

I rarely consult commentaries. I've found the bulk of them to be scholarly, but not spiritual. They simply don't ring the bell of truth that I think God put into all his people. They seem to want to teach on their own instead of leading people into their own inspired teaching lessons with God.

 

[Kathi]

Not to be rude, but that should tell you something. If you have faith in that site, use it. I personally don't rely on anyone else's word, I prefer to do my own research. By searching the scriptures I come to my own understanding of the Word, not someone else's.

But that's just me.
.

Not to be rude but I do not rely on anyone elses word.I do like to research just like you do.I go to many different Bible study sites.If I do not understand something in scripture I will go to a reliable site.I have been on several unreliable sites and I know the difference.I definately will not take the word of many,many people who are on Christian websites.That is a source that I do not find reliable.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not to be rude but I do not rely on anyone elses word.I do like to research just like you do.I go to many different Bible study sites.If I do not understand something in scripture I will go to a reliable site.I have been on several unreliable sites and I know the difference.I definately will not take the word of many,many people who are on Christian websites.That is a source that I do not find reliable.

What is our measure of truth by which we gauge another person's words? That is the question. Is our measure of truth the words that sound the most reasonable out of all that we read? No, it has to be something outside of what we're reading, the words bearing witness to the truth, the words not being the truth themselves. That's how I've learned to discern the truth in what other people say.

Witnesses aren't the truth themselves. They point me to the truth. This is what I look for in people's writings about the things of God. My personal experience has been that rarely happens in commentaries. I've learned more from just gabbing about the word with my brothers and sisters than I have from official non-Biblical sources of information. It works because I get personally inspired, not spoon fed what I'm supposed to believe. I guess that's the best way I can say it.

 

[Kathi]

What is our measure of truth by which we gauge another person's words? That is the question. Is our measure of truth the words that sound the most reasonable out of all that we read? No, it has to be something outside of what we're reading, the words bearing witness to the truth, the words not being the truth themselves. That's how I've learned to discern the truth in what other people say.

Witnesses aren't the truth themselves. They point me to the truth. This is what I look for in people's writings about the things of God. My personal experience has been that rarely happens in commentaries. I've learned more from just gabbing about the word with my brothers and sisters than I have from official non-Biblical sources of information. It works because I get personally inspired, not spoon fed what I'm supposed to believe. I guess that's the best way I can say it.

I ask God to use the Holy Spirit as my counselor.That the Holy Spirit will show me the truth and give me excellent discernment.I ask God to help me turn away from what is not His truth.I go by my feelings.If something comes up that gives me a very uncomfortable feeling I know to stay away from it.I am not going to tell anyone on here that they are wrong.I am not going to point fingers.That is not a Christian attitude to have.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I go by my feelings.If something comes up that gives me a very uncomfortable feeling I know to stay away from it.

I know what you mean by 'feelings' but honestly, Kathi, we all have to be more flexible than that.

There are things that I wished were true, and had plenty of voices around me to tell me they were true, but sometimes the truth is a harsh reality that sets in and we have to be flexible enough to acknowledge it.

And for the sake of this thread, if that means realizing that we really do have an obligation to continue in our trust in God to the very end to be saved in the end, and that it really is possible, like the Galatians and the Corinthians to not continue in that believing, then we need to set feelings and expectations aside in favor of the truth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am not going to tell anyone on here that they are wrong.I am not going to point fingers.That is not a Christian attitude to have.

I think the key lies in how we show people they are wrong. That's the Christian attitude.

 

[Kathi]

I know what you mean by 'feelings' but honestly, Kathi, we all have to be more flexible than that.

There are things that I wished were true, and had plenty of voices around me to tell me they were true, but sometimes the truth is a harsh reality that sets in and we have to be flexible enough to acknowledge it.

And for the sake of this thread, if that means realizing that we really do have an obligation to continue in our trust in God to the very end to be saved in the end, and that it really is possible, like the Galatians and the Corinthians to not continue in that believing, then we need to set feelings and expectations aside in favor of the truth.

I know what you mean by 'feelings' but honestly, Kathi, we all have to be more flexible than that.
The Holy Spirit gives me a sense of feeling when it wants me to stay away from something.It also gives me a feeling of peace when I am headed in the right direction.
I do not appreciate your condescending attitude towards my feelings on the Holy Spirit within me and the guidance and direction that the Holy Spirit gives me.I am sure that God does not like that either.

 

[jeff77]

Which doctrine, OSAS, or non-OSAS, has the most potential to cause this to happen to someone?

"...the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless.13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’" (Matthew NASB)

It does matter what we're telling people. We want to be used of God to bring those who will believe into the kingdom, not be used to lead people, who weren't going to believe anyway, to their destruction through a doctrine that gave them a false comfort in a salvation they really did not have on the Day of Wrath.

In response to the last part of your post. Can someone really be sent to hell because they believed in a false doctrine that another man taught them? What would happen to the person teaching the false doctrine whether they actually believed in it themselves or not? When I say false doctrine in this case I mean someone who says to another that they can become saved if they just believe and then after that they can live whatever kind of life they want to and it won't affect their salvation.

 

[Gary]

I go by my feelings.If something comes up that gives me a very uncomfortable feeling I know to stay away from it.

Proverbs 14
12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.


This is just my opinion, but I don't believe scripture should be interpreted based on our emotions. We shouldn't judge another persons words using emotion either. I've learned a lot of things from people I did not particularly like.

I am not going to tell anyone on here that they are wrong.I am not going to point fingers.That is not a Christian attitude to have.

James 5
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


There are many ways to point someone in the right direct without having to get in their face. This thread is a perfect example of that. It was a thread similar to this one that caused me to dig into the scriptures in search of the truth .........and find it. Exposing an error in someones theology doesn't have to be a finger pointing experience.


Again, just my opinion.
.