Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[agua.]

In response to the last part of your post. Can someone really be sent to hell because they believed in a false doctrine that another man taught them? What would happen to the person teaching the false doctrine whether they actually believed in it themselves or not? When I say false doctrine in this case I mean someone who says to another that they can become saved if they just believe and then after that they can live whatever kind of life they want to and it won't affect their salvation.

It's not exactly the same but Jesus said that the false teachers in His day. These teachers were denying Jesus and placing traditional burdens upon people though.

Mat 15:12-14 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? (13) But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. (14) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[Chopper]

Actually I did not indulge that thread. I was introduced to your four point Calvinist view in the predestination thread if I'm not mistaken.



I don't believe that either. No more than I believe that he pre-made some to be believers (other than the 'John the Baptists' of history--if there was/is more than one of them).

What I do believe, and which is what I thought you would agree with is that God, knowing beginning to end and everything in between, can purposely bring someone in the world who he knows ahead of time will believe or not believe, and place them in the circumstances he wants them to be in in order to fulfill his purposes using their own will. Judas being a very good example of this.

God knew that Judas would not believe. He didn't make him that way--as you apparently agree with. He knew what kind of soil he would be--soil that would reject the truth about Jesus. Knowing that, he placed him in history in such a time and place to serve his predetermined plan of turning the author of life over to death--using Judas' own choice to not believe to do it.

If God can ordain the time and circumstances of the person who he knows ahead of time will choose to not believe why is it unreasonable that God can do this with people who will believe?



They came about at the time and place and circumstances of his choosing, not came about as a result of his choice to manufacture them as believers.



This is where I think this division in elect--those who are predetermined by design to be among the elect, and those who are not predetermined to be a part of the elect, but can be by their own choice--fails in the Biblical support department. I need to see Biblical support that defines these two groups. Don't forget, I'm not against the concept altogether. As I say, John the Baptist is one of these pre-manufactured servants of God. But as for the rest of us? I need Bible evidence. I don't think even Paul could be considered pre-manufactured to believe.

Bottom line is, the remnant is simply those who God knew ahead of time would believe of their own choice whom he has purposely dispersed throughout history and reserved for himself to represent him in the earth at any one moment in time. He's always had a remnant (Romans 11?), not because he manufactured them to be that, but because he placed them in history at the right time to be that for him.



Okay, we can conclude then that you are non-OSAS...except for the few that you say were made to be believers and have no choice in the matter, correct? If so, for the sake of this forum, where have you developed your non-OSAS views from in the Bible for whom non-OSAS applies? OSASer's need to hear it.

A quick reply to your last question is in the General call of the Gospel, these people who claim to be saved, some are genuine and some aren't. The deciding point where the fake believers depart is found in the Book of Hebrews for one source. Look at all the if's "Heb. 3:12-15 V.14 "For we have come to share in Christ, IF indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end". That my friend is non OSAS.

Jethro, look at Galatians 1:15 "But when he who had set me apart before I was born" Personally, I think that anyone who does not think that God preselected certain folk to be saved before they were born, like Paul here, and Jeremiah in the OT. and believe that God looked into the future and saw who would believe on Him, is doing a grave injustice to the creative power, and the ability to choose and then have that person actually do what God had preselected that person to do. It is God's own prophesy about that believer. It is ample truth to me that nothing that God sets His mind to can fail.

I think that to believe that God had to wait to see if a person would believe before He chose him, would be a weak example of His power.

 

[Gary]

In response to the last part of your post. Can someone really be sent to hell because they believed in a false doctrine that another man taught them? What would happen to the person teaching the false doctrine whether they actually believed in it themselves or not? When I say false doctrine in this case I mean someone who says to another that they can become saved if they just believe and then after that they can live whatever kind of life they want to and it won't affect their salvation.

Luke 6
39 And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch?

Matthew 5
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16
12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

2 Corinthians 11
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.



We will all be held accountable for our own walk. There will be no pointing fingers and placing blame on the day we stand before the Lord.


Romans 14
11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Matthew 12
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

2 Corinthians 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
.

 

[Deborah13]

A quick reply to your last question is in the General call of the Gospel, these people who claim to be saved, some are genuine and some aren't. The deciding point where the fake believers depart is found in the Book of Hebrews for one source. Look at all the if's "Heb. 3:12-15 V.14 "For we have come to share in Christ, IF indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end". That my friend is non OSAS.

Jethro, look at Galatians 1:15 "But when he who had set me apart before I was born" Personally, I think that anyone who does not think that God preselected certain folk to be saved before they were born, like Paul here, and Jeremiah in the OT. and believe that God looked into the future and saw who would believe on Him, is doing a grave injustice to the creative power, and the ability to choose and then have that person actually do what God had preselected that person to do. It is God's own prophesy about that believer. It is ample truth to me that nothing that God sets His mind to can fail.

I think that to believe that God had to wait to see if a person would believe before He chose him, would be a weak example of His power.

So what I hear you saying is that some scriptures point to OSAS and some point to non-OSAS, then there must be both.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know what you mean by 'feelings' but honestly, Kathi, we all have to be more flexible than that.
The Holy Spirit gives me a sense of feeling when it wants me to stay away from something.It also gives me a feeling of peace when I am headed in the right direction.
I do not appreciate your condescending attitude towards my feelings on the Holy Spirit within me and the guidance and direction that the Holy Spirit gives me.I am sure that God does not like that either.

You are right. God would not like it if I had a condescending attitude towards your feelings. But since I don't I'm confident that he's not displeased. I was even purposely trying to be conciliatory in how I said what I did. Did you catch it?

"...WE ALL have to be more flexible that that."

 

[Deborah13]

Luke 6
39 And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch?

Matthew 5
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16
12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

2 Corinthians 11
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.



We will all be held accountable for our own walk. There will be no pointing fingers and placing blame on the day we stand before the Lord.


Romans 14
11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Matthew 12
36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

2 Corinthians 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
.

So I have two questions
What was the righteousness (justification) that the Pharisees had?
What was the doctrine of the Pharisees and the Sadducee?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know what you mean by 'feelings' but honestly, Kathi, we all have to be more flexible than that.
The Holy Spirit gives me a sense of feeling when it wants me to stay away from something.It also gives me a feeling of peace when I am headed in the right direction.

What sense are you getting in regard to Paul warning the saved, Spirit-filled Galatians to not turn back to reliance on the law for justification, or else make the justification in Christ they received of of no effect?

 

[jasoncran]

So I have two questions
What was the righteousness (justification) that the Pharisees had?
What was the doctrine of the Pharisees and the Sadducee?

do keep in mind that those Pharisees weren't representiive of the early jewry of the likes of hillel, who birthed gammalel. if you want I can let in you in on interesting statement by modern rabbis about the the temple and the torah.

 

[Deborah13]

do keep in mind that those Pharisees weren't representiive of the early jewry of the likes of hillel, who birthed gammalel. if you want I can let in you in on interesting statement by modern rabbis about the the temple and the torah.

Yes, that would be great. PM me.

 

[Deborah13]

What sense are you getting in regard to Paul warning the saved, Spirit-filled Galatians to not turn back to reliance on the law for justification, or else make the justification in Christ they received of of no effect?

He was saying the same thing he would say about turning back to pagan gods for salvation.
That would be rejecting the blood of Christ. Trampling it under foot.

 

[MysticalJourney]

I think members of the Reformed church (which I am not a member and never have been!) say:

God is 100% sovereign and man (make that people!) are 100% responsible.

I think that rather sums up where I am at. I have quoted many scriptures above, and got opinions back. So here is my opinion. LOL

 

[Butch5]

This is why I talk about honestly looking at the plain words of scripture. We have to find the courage to question what we've been taught by letting the Bible discern what we've been taught, instead of letting what we've been taught discern scripture.

Though we don't know the names of any of the Galatians, they were real, Spirit-filled people who were warned that if they fell from the grace of Christ and became slaves to trying to be justified by another way other than Christ, they would forfeit the promise, because slaves to the flesh do not, and can not, inherit the Master's estate. But OSAS says that 1) it's impossible to fall from grace once you've really been saved by grace, and 2) if you do 'fall from grace' you were never 'in grace' to begin with. The Galatians show us neither of these OSAS teachings are true.

It's time for another reformation. The church has been ignoring the plain words of scripture far too long. Even if it means droves of people leave the church, and big church budgets go bust, we need to contend for the truth again in the church.

Not directed at any one person. I understand we all, myself included, innocently go with what we've been taught and have lots of respect for our leaders who taught us these things (who themselves have great respect for who taught them). But it's time to get back to the truth.

Hi Jethro,

That's where I am. I was in the Baptist church for many years and blindly followed. Then I went to the Presbyterian Church and they taught things that were the opposite of the Baptist church. It was this conflict and listening to the Scriptures on audio that made me begin to search for the truth. I got tired of all of the nonsense. I'd ask questions and get answers like, some things are hard to understand or it's a mystery. Well, there's a reason God revealed His to man and it wasn't so man would walk around confused. God is a God of reason, so when I hear we can't understand that or we cannot know this, I disagree. I believe that we can understand anything in the Book, that why it was given to us. Yes there are things about God we probably cannot understand, however, I don't that what God has put in the Bible. The whole purpose for the revelation is so we can know. So, I agree with you we need to look at everything we believe no matter how much we care for a doctrine. Whether it is what Grandpa or Grandma taught us or not.

There is so much error in Christianity from people thinking they can interpret the Scriptures however they see fit. There a quite a few doctrines that have their roots in paganism and not Christianity and there are many Christians who simple will not question these doctrines. Anytime we have passages that seem to conflict on a particular doctrine we should see red flags going up. We shouldn't just ignore these issues. If the Scriptures are infallible then there is no contradiction. We should seek to reconcile any perceived contradictions rather than look past them. That is the only way we will find the truth. We can know we've found the truth when our understanding on a doctrine can account for "ALL" of the passages that deal with the doctrine in an orderly and coherent way.

 

[Butch5]

Yes the context is never dying, if you believe in Jesus.

That goes for everyone.

Everyone's body dies, except those who go in the Rapture.

As Jesus taught us Abraham was not dead.

Lazarus was not dead.

The Old Testament saints down in the heart of the earth were not dead.

As God told Moses at the burning bush, God, is the God of the living and not the dead.

Moses body had died, yet we see him speaking with Jesus and Elijah.


Moses is alive.

Abraham is alive.

All who believe in Jesus are alive, though their bodies have died, they themselves are alive with the Lord, in heaven.


JLB

I would ask you, since Jesus made that statement has any Christian ever died? Obviously you'd have to answer yes since there have been millions. Since there have been it shows that your understanding of that passage is incorrect.

 

[Butch5]

Jethro, If you remember the thread on end times and all the theology that was discussed about pre-trib etc. The Calvinist view was discussed in great detail. I am not a five point Calvinist because I don't believe that God predestines some to be lost! No Way! God, throughout history has always had a remnant of believers. This remnant came about by His choice before the foundation of the earth. It really is as simple as that. They are the elect.

Now the question is asked, what about the rest of mankind that God did not choose before the foundations of the earth. The remnant of God is supposed to witness the God they serve, to the world of unbelievers. Because God is not willing that ANY perish. God knew that Israel would drop the ball in being a witness to the world. So, before the foundation of the world, He predetermined a group of faithful followers to do the job, thus the remnant....Much like the 144,000 in Revelation.

Now, the remnant, or elect, is responsible for demonstrating God's love to the Nations. I refer to it as a "General Call of the Gospel". All people, (unsaved) are to hear the Gospel by the remnant. As people are saved, they join the "elect" and join in on spreading the Gospel. The major difference in the two are, the original predetermined remnant (elect) can never loose their Salvation (much like the 144,000) BUT those who come through the (general call) are subject to all the "if's" found in the NT.

There will be an apostasy (2 Thess 2) whereby some believers who come thru the General Call will desert their belief in Jesus and rebel. Jesus spoke about those who said "we prophesied in your Name, did miracles in your Name etc. etc. In other words, GET LOST.

I am a 4 point Calvanist. because I believe in a General Call of the Gospel to those Who Jesus want's to come into His great Company of Elect.

Hi Chopper,

I would submit that that passage in Ephesians 1,those who were chosen from the foundation of the world is speaking of the Jews.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Jethro,

That's where I am. I was in the Baptist church for many years and blindly followed. Then I went to the Presbyterian Church and they taught things that were the opposite of the Baptist church. It was this conflict and listening to the Scriptures on audio that made me begin to search for the truth. I got tired of all of the nonsense. I'd ask questions and get answers like, some things are hard to understand or it's a mystery. Well, there's a reason God revealed His to man and it wasn't so man would walk around confused. God is a God of reason, so when I hear we can't understand that or we cannot know this, I disagree. I believe that we can understand anything in the Book, that why it was given to us. Yes there are things about God we probably cannot understand, however, I don't that what God has put in the Bible. The whole purpose for the revelation is so we can know. So, I agree with you we need to look at everything we believe no matter how much we care for a doctrine. Whether it is what Grandpa or Grandma taught us or not.

There is so much error in Christianity from people thinking they can interpret the Scriptures however they see fit. There a quite a few doctrines that have their roots in paganism and not Christianity and there are many Christians who simple will not question these doctrines. Anytime we have passages that seem to conflict on a particular doctrine we should see red flags going up. We shouldn't just ignore these issues. If the Scriptures are infallible then there is no contradiction. We should seek to reconcile any perceived contradictions rather than look past them. That is the only way we will find the truth. We can know we've found the truth when our understanding on a doctrine can account for "ALL" of the passages that deal with the doctrine in an orderly and coherent way.

I agree. But when people are so busy just condemning what other people believe instead of discussing the scripture that a person has presented nothing is accomplished except hurt feelings, anger, and division.
And that is what I see a lot of. A lot of debating the person personally, rather than the scripture.
There is no reason to tell someone that they are believing false doctrine, etc.
Hash out what the scripture says. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

 

[Gary]

I agree. But when people are so busy just condemning what other people believe instead of discussing the scripture that a person has presented nothing is accomplished except hurt feelings, anger, and division.
And that is what I see a lot of. A lot of debating the person personally, rather than the scripture.
There is no reason to tell someone that they are believing false doctrine, etc.
Hash out what the scripture says. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Chopper,

I would submit that that passage in Ephesians 1,those who were chosen from the foundation of the world is speaking of the Jews.

Which Jews?

 

[Kathi]

I agree. But when people are so busy just condemning what other people believe instead of discussing the scripture that a person has presented nothing is accomplished except hurt feelings, anger, and division.
And that is what I see a lot of. A lot of debating the person personally, rather than the scripture.
There is no reason to tell someone that they are believing false doctrine, etc.
Hash out what the scripture says. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

I think if a person points at person and tells them that they are following false doctrine it only brings defensive reactions and causes anger among us.Let the Mods pick that up.We are all going to have different views.There is no reason to get angry at someone.

 

[Butch5]

I agree. But when people are so busy just condemning what other people believe instead of discussing the scripture that a person has presented nothing is accomplished except hurt feelings, anger, and division.
And that is what I see a lot of. A lot of debating the person personally, rather than the scripture.
There is no reason to tell someone that they are believing false doctrine, etc.
Hash out what the scripture says. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

I'm not condemning anyone, I'm simply pointing out facts. I've discussed with many Christians who simply will not hear anything that goes against what they believe. My point is that if we are not willing to consider that we may be wrong we will won't come to the truth.

 

[Butch5]

Which Jews?

I'm not sure what you mean by, which Jews. The Israelites.