Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Deborah13]

I'm not condemning anyone, I'm simply pointing out facts. I've discussed with many Christians who simply will not hear anything that goes against what they believe. My point is that if we are not willing to consider that we may be wrong we will won't come to the truth.

I agree with you. Point taken.
This is not direct at you personally Butch because I don't think it is your intention is to brow beat people. But some people do just that. My philosophy is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not sure what you mean by, which Jews. The Israelites.

So you mean Jews by genetics in their blood.
OK just wondering.

 

[WIP]

 

[Butch5]

I agree with you. Point taken.
This is not direct at you personally Butch because I don't think it is your intention is to brow beat people. But some people do just that. My philosophy is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

I agree, I think that what leads to the problems is the frustration that builds when there is one person who will not consider that what they believe or say may be incorrect. There's a person on another forum like that. No matter what anyone says to the person they simply will not be wrong.

 

[Butch5]

So you mean Jews by genetics in their blood.
OK just wondering.

Yeah, the Jews were chosen by God to be a holy and blameless people. However, as we see from the Scriptures they did not fulfill that role. The passage in Ephesians 1:3-12 is a single sentence in the Greek text. It's what's known as a Hebraism, it's a Hebrew praise for what God has done. In that passage Paul is praising God for what He has done for the Jewish people.

I know most Christians think Paul is talking about the Christians at Ephesus, but he's really not. If you're interested I can give you a break down of the passage and the references to the OT that are in it.

 

[JLB]

I ask God to use the Holy Spirit as my counselor.That the Holy Spirit will show me the truth and give me excellent discernment.I ask God to help me turn away from what is not His truth.I go by my feelings.If something comes up that gives me a very uncomfortable feeling I know to stay away from it.I am not going to tell anyone on here that they are wrong.I am not going to point fingers.That is not a Christian attitude to have.

Paul saw the corruption of false teaching leading the Churches that he himself was sent to raise up, back into bondage.

Paul did way more than say this was false and way more than point fingers.

He placed a curse on those who would preach a different Gospel.

A Gospel that required Gentiles to keep the law of Moses and be circumcised.

Paul called this turning away from God.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ. 11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. Galatians 1:6-11


James also makes this incredible statement -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20

James teaches us that those who wander from the truth, are in fact liked to and considered as sinners.

Remember, this is someone who wanders from the truth.

The Heresy of false teaching is a serious thing in God's Kingdom.

Those that Practice heresies will not inherit the kingdom of God.

James says to turn one back to the truth, cover a multitude of sins. Love covers a multitude of sins.

I pray that you consider these scriptures as a balance to what may be considered as Christian behavior.


Bless you.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I would ask you, since Jesus made that statement has any Christian ever died? Obviously you'd have to answer yes since there have been millions. Since there have been it shows that your understanding of that passage is incorrect.

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. Luke 16:22-25


Did Lazarus die?

Where did he go when he died.

How could the rich man see Lazarus, and ask that Lazarus come to him and dip his finger in water?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah, the Jews were chosen by God to be a holy and blameless people. However, as we see from the Scriptures they did not fulfill that role. The passage in Ephesians 1:3-12 is a single sentence in the Greek text. It's what's known as a Hebraism, it's a Hebrew praise for what God has done. In that passage Paul is praising God for what He has done for the Jewish people.

I know most Christians think Paul is talking about the Christians at Ephesus, but he's really not. If you're interested I can give you a break down of the passage and the references to the OT that are in it.

I would be happy to discuss it, but you will have to start it in another thread.

 

[Butch5]

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. Luke 16:22-25


Did Lazarus die?

Where did he go when he died.

How could the rich man see Lazarus, and ask that Lazarus come to him and dip his finger in water?


JLB

JLB, you didn't answer the question. Has any Christian died since Jesus made that statement?

 

[agua.]

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. Luke 16:22-25


Did Lazarus die?

Where did he go when he died.

How could the rich man see Lazarus, and ask that Lazarus come to him and dip his finger in water?


JLB

This is interesting JLB because it would also suggest the Rich man didn't die.

 

[Butch5]

I would be happy to discuss it, but you will have to start it in another thread.

I'll start a thread and post a link to the commentary I've compiled on the passage.

 

[Gary]

I agree, I think that what leads to the problems is the frustration that builds when there is one person who will not consider that what they believe or say may be incorrect. There's a person on another forum like that. No matter what anyone says to the person they simply will not be wrong.

I've learned to just let those people go.
.

 

[Butch5]

I've learned to just let those people go.
.

That's all you can do.

 

[digging]

JLB,

You made a connection that I wish to comment on.....the fear of believing wrong 'doctrine'. There is a difference between ideas/beliefs/doctrines and Actions, physical things that we do.

For the people to turn back to the law was to also physically practice it. The bible is far more clear on the dangers of sinful BEHAVIORS that on thoughts and reasoning's.

This is a fine line that has so often been used to try and pressure other Christians to conform to 'right doctrine'.

We are known by our fruit Christ said.

Digging

 

[JLB]

JLB, you didn't answer the question. Has any Christian died since Jesus made that statement?

Yes, just as Lazarus died.

The scripture says Lazarus died.

Yet The scripture says:

The rich man recognized Lazarus.

Abraham recognized Lazarus.

The rich man identified that Lazarus had fingers.

Abraham said Lazarus was comforted.

All of which teaches us that Lazarus continued to exist, though his body died.

Jesus taught us from this story about the first death, which pertains to your body.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Though Christians have died, they are with jesus in heaven.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10

These souls who are in heaven, had died. The were slain.

Yet they lived and spoke and were with the Lord.

These are just a few scripture that teach us, we live though our body has died.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Yes, just as Lazarus died.

The scripture says Lazarus died.

Yet The scripture says:

The rich man recognized Lazarus.

Abraham recognized Lazarus.

The rich man identified that Lazarus had fingers.

Abraham said Lazarus was comforted.

All of which teaches us that Lazarus continued to exist, though his body died.

Jesus taught us from this story about the first death, which pertains to your body.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Though Christians have died, they are with jesus in heaven.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10

These souls who are in heaven, had died. The were slain.

Yet they lived and spoke and were with the Lord.

These are just a few scripture that teach us, we live though our body has died.


JLB

Then you'll need to reconcile that with your statement

 

[jeff77]

It's not exactly the same but Jesus said that the false teachers in His day. These teachers were denying Jesus and placing traditional burdens upon people though.

Mat 15:12-14 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? (13) But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. (14) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

I'm trying to figure out if a person could be led by the teachings of a false teacher and never hear the truth. Would they be sent to hell? It seems like God would somehow reveal the truth through another person perhaps.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In response to the last part of your post. Can someone really be sent to hell because they believed in a false doctrine that another man taught them?

Generally speaking (this is a complicated subject), I would say, "yes." But I don't believe that person would have been saved if they had heard correct doctrine, either.

What would happen to the person teaching the false doctrine whether they actually believed in it themselves or not?

Well, that's a good question. We see an apparent contradiction in what Paul said to the Corinthians. In one breath he says, "If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person" (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB), but at the same time he says in the passage that if he fails to build them up into something that can withstand the fires of the Judgment he himself will be saved, but he will lose the reward of his work in the Lord (that is, the Corinthians) who will be burned up in the Judgment, not entering into the kingdom with him to be his crown of joy and achievement (ref. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB).

When I say false doctrine in this case I mean someone who says to another that they can become saved if they just believe and then after that they can live whatever kind of life they want to and it won't affect their salvation.

That's a hard question. But it does seem that's what happens in the church today. Pastors who (apparently) live genuinely holy and sanctified lives for God, but who then preach a gospel that contradicts James teaching about faith and works. Like I say, it's complicated. But the bottom line is I don't think the vast majority of these pastors are purposely trying to tear down the kingdom of God. I know what their outcome would be if they were doing that.

This is all part of the duplicity of the OSAS argument that I see. Out one side of it's mouth it says the person who lives in sin was never saved to begin with, and out the other side of it's mouth saying works, good or bad, have no bearing on your salvation whatsoever.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm trying to figure out if a person could be led by the teachings of a false teacher and never hear the truth. Would they be sent to hell? It seems like God would somehow reveal the truth through another person perhaps.

Or through nature or conscience (Romans 2:14-15).

I don't believe that God will let a person slip through the fingers of salvation simply because they did not hear the gospel, but who would have believed if they had heard it. All people (who live long enough) will hear the gospel in some form.This is why I say the person who doesn't respond to the actual gospel message is the same person who will not respond to the call of God through conscience or nature. And vice versa.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A quick reply to your last question is in the General call of the Gospel, these people who claim to be saved, some are genuine and some aren't. The deciding point where the fake believers depart is found in the Book of Hebrews for one source.

I see, then, that you believe there are only two groups--those who really are saved, and those who are really not saved. But pretty much indistinguishable until the fake ones return to their life of sin. Classic OSAS doctrine for sure.

I don't see that in scripture. I see strong faith, and I see weak faith. God's goal being to strengthen people's faith so they can endure in their trust in Christ for salvation and not forfeit the benefit of Christ's ministry through not trusting in his ministry. Surely there are fakes, but the goal described to the church in scripture is more of that of having an enduring faith, not making sure you're saved to begin with. But OSAS interprets the message to the church as being 'make sure you're really saved'.

Look at all the if's "Heb. 3:12-15 V.14 "For we have come to share in Christ, IF indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end". That my friend is non OSAS.

Did you mean to say 'non OSAS'? Because that is exactly one of the scriptures I've been saying teaches non-OSAS.

Jethro, look at Galatians 1:15 "But when he who had set me apart before I was born" Personally, I think that anyone who does not think that God preselected certain folk to be saved before they were born, like Paul here, and Jeremiah in the OT. and believe that God looked into the future and saw who would believe on Him, is doing a grave injustice to the creative power, and the ability to choose and then have that person actually do what God had preselected that person to do. It is God's own prophesy about that believer. It is ample truth to me that nothing that God sets His mind to can fail.

I think that to believe that God had to wait to see if a person would believe before He chose him, would be a weak example of His power.

The emboldened part is exactly what I've been saying. Paul is actually what I had in mind when I made my post.

God did not ordain Judas for the job Paul had because God knew (him knowing all things) that Judas was not going to accept the gospel. But he did know before Paul was created that he would accept the truth, and, therefore, established a plan and purpose for his life accordingly.

The bottom line is, God did not have to manufacture Paul as a believer apart from his own will to be a believer for God that would fulfill his purpose of having a messenger of the gospel in this world that would succeed in that plan.

I'm still of the opinion that God gets far more glory out of molding and shaping man's will so they will fulfill his purposes than by simply creating beings who's will to love and serve him has been assigned to them. I'm not terribly impressed by a God who can simply create people who are automatically wired for him. Not even the angels were pre-wired that way. But I am impressed by a God who can rein in a man's will to serve and love him. I give him boundless praise for doing that in me. I remember before I got saved how impossible it seemed that I could one day serve God and not be under his condemnation. Well, God did the impossible. I'm a trophy of the cross.

Maybe that's why John the Baptist, though being the greatest among men born of women, is actually less than the least in the kingdom of God (Matthew 11:11 NASB). (He was a pre-manufactured believer for those who are wondering).