Doctrine of Predestination

[brightfame52]

Perhaps... But... Judas is in Good Company...

NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Don't hate Judas... He was Just like Pharaoh..... A tool of God...
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Ever occur to You... that you might actually be a Pharaoh or Judas on this site???
Of course not...
Paul

Judas was chosen for perdition. Jn 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

It would have better for judas if he had never been born Matt 26:24


The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

 

[Whatever]

Is it possible he does? Is it possible he has foreknowledge of every nanosecond of my existence? Certainly it is, and that's one legitimate view. As William Lane Craig and others have shown, this view of God's foreknowledge isn't philosophically incompatible with human free will.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

I think I will stick with Scripture than human philosophers.

 

[hawkman]

No, I don't.

Wow a direct answer ! Don't get many of those . I think we will get along very well .

Is it possible he does? Is it possible he has foreknowledge of every nanosecond of my existence? Certainly it is, and that's one legitimate view. As William Lane Craig and others have shown, this view of God's foreknowledge isn't philosophically incompatible with human free will.

I had a dream one night and @ six months later I was exactly where I was shown I would be in my dream . That will get your attention . When I had the dream I had no idea it was my future to come .

I'm not dogmatic about the matter - I have no basis or reason to be - but it makes more sense to me that God created humans with genuine free will and no foreknowledge of the actions they would take or the choices they would make. This is basically what is known as Open Theism, which is controversial but does not seem to me to be inconsistent with God's perfection or sovereignty.

Open Theism , I will check it out , thanks for the link .

The more interesting question to me is whether God foreknew who these individuals would be. This is a very complex issue, as anyone who has tried to follow William Lane Craig's discussion of "counterfactuals" and God's "middle knowledge" will agree.

I had no idea what middle knowledge was but I came to find out just now as I looked it up it is something I had already considered myself . I did not know it had a name .

 

[Runner]

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

I think I will stick with Scripture than human philosophers.

And what is it, precisely, that you are "sticking with" in this instance?

Christian philosophers and theologians are as guided by the Holy Spirit as any other Christians. Their educated and informed insights can be valuable for all of us. When a Joe Average tells me he'll stick with Scripture (i.e., his own understanding) rather than what those highfalutin philosophers and theologians have to say, I can only chuckle. I don't bow to the philosophers and theologians as though they were the ultimate authorities, but I do value and consider what they have to offer.

 

[Whatever]

God knows everything because He declares it to happen. It comes to pass according to His counsel, purpose.

Yes, but it is more than knowing.
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

God declares the end from the beginning.

Isaiah 41:22 “Tell us, you idols,
what is going to happen.
Tell us what the former things were,
so that we may consider them
and know their final outcome.
Or declare to us the things to come,
23 tell us what the future holds,
so we may know that you are gods.
Do something, whether good or bad,
so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.

One of the things that God uses to show that He is God and idols are not is His ability to declare the future.

Isaiah 44:7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let them foretell what will come.

Isa 48:3 “The former things I declared of old; they went out from my mouth, and I announced them; then suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.

Isaiah 42:9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you.”

 

[Runner]

I had a dream one night and @ six months later I was exactly where I was shown I would be in my dream . That will get your attention . When I had the dream I had no idea it was my future to come .

I don't want to derail the thread or take us completely outside the scope of the forums, but you do raise an interesting point that would be worth exploring on another thread. A lifelong interest in the paranormal has occupied at least as much of my time as my spiritual quest. I've never sought paranormal experiences, which I believe can be very dangerous, but I have had quite a few - the most significant being what are called After Death Communications. I've likewise spent vast amounts of time studying Near Death Experiences, After Death Communications, PSI and all other aspects of psychical research.

I really question whether I would have embarked on a spiritual quest at all or become a Christian without these experiences. They are foundational to my beliefs, puzzling as they often are.

Like your precognitive dream, they do raise questions about the very nature of our reality. Much of what they suggest can be harmonized with orthodox Christianity, but some aspects are challenging.

Unlike many Christians, I'm not afraid of this large body of evidence or willing to chalk it all up to demonic deception. My own experiences - none of which, I emphasize again, were sought after - have been entirely positive and have only strengthened my faith that I am on the right path. Also unlike many Christians, I don't insist that my Christian beliefs are cast in concrete and that anything which challenges them must be flatly rejected, If evidence is sufficiently compelling to cause me to reexamine or modify my beliefs, I will do so.

In any event, an interesting topic that may be worth exploring at another time.

 

[Runner]

Yea.... Calvinism suxs.... Because he did not understand Scripture...

To be fair, Calvin is acknowledged even by non-Calvinist scholars as a theological genius of the first magnitude. He is one of the giants of the Reformation. Try reading his massive Institutes of the Christian Religion, which is available for free at Project Gutenberg and is one of the most influential works of biblical scholarship in the history of Christianity.

At least as it relates to what I've said, some of the comments being made and verses being cited in this thread miss the point. I have no quibble with the view that God created the universe and humanity with a plan in mind; that God upholds the universe on a moment by moment basis; that God is involved in the events of the world, exerts influence and sometimes takes direct action to bring about desired results; and that all will eventually unfold in accordance with God's plan.

If God "decreed" every event at the individual level, from me accepting Christ 50 years ago to eating yogurt and playing golf this morning, free will would be a complete illusion and human existence would be a cartoon. Indeed, the cartoonish nature of some versions of Christianity, including hyper-Calvinism, is one of the principal objections by non-believers.

The real issue is God's foreknowledge as it relates to individual free will. As I've said, the notion that God "must" have perfect foreknowledge is not so much biblical as it is one of the prongs of the ontological "proof" of God's existence as the most perfect being that can be conceived. See https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/.

The view I've suggested, without being dogmatic about it, is that God is omni-creative. I believe the creation is essentially a work of art by the ultimate artist. I believe God created humans with genuine libertarian free will and no foreknowledge of what actions they would take or choices they would make.

I don't see this view as diluting God's perfection or sovereignty in the slightest. It makes the creation far more meaningful from God's perspective than some of the other views. It also eliminates the endlessly confusing speculation as to how God's foreknowledge relates to our free will, resulting in obscure notions like "middle knowledge" (which are certainly no more biblical than my view). By this view, God by his own choice has no foreknowledge as to how individuals will exercise their free will.

 

[hawkman]

I have no say!!!

Did you read about Abraham having a conversation with God ?

Hawkman, Do you think you have a chance in He (double tooth picks) to disrupt the will of God due to your free will???

I always heard it this way HE(double hockey sticks) .

 

[crossnote]

My view, of course, is about as far from Calvinistic predestination as it could be, but it is fully consistent with corporate predestination.

How would you handle Paul's statement?...

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
(Gal 1:15)

Obviously, it wasn't on a corporate level.

 

[crossnote]

Do you believe God knows exactly where you will be six months from now ?

Definitely! After all, He is all-knowing (omniscient), no?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God knows everything because He declares it to happen. It comes to pass according to His counsel, purpose.

I assure you He does not declare people to do evil to one another. You got the wrong God.

 

[Runner]

How would you handle Paul's statement?...



Obviously, it wasn't on a corporate level.

Paul clearly believed he had been specially selected by God for his mission as an apostle. John Calvin's own commentary on this verse makes clear that this is what it is talking about: "This separation was the purpose of God, by which Paul was appointed to the apostolic office, before he knew that he was born. The calling followed afterwards at the proper time, when the Lord made known his will concerning him, and commanded him to proceed to the work."

I don't feel compelled to "handle" every verse in the Bible. Those who do feel compelled to do so end up as hopelessly confused theological basket cases because it is impossible to harmonize the strands of thought that are irreconcilable. This is why proof texting is such a popular hobby: I'll roll out the 20 verses that support my position, then you'll roll out the 20 that support yours, and then we'll scream at each other until nonbelievers roll their eyes and giggle.

There is no question that a Calvinistic predestination argument can be constructed from the Bible, most specifically from Paul's epistles. As I said previously, Calvin was no theological dummy by a long shot. However, this is not the soundest position, which is why it is not a mainstream position and why, even among Calvinists, 5-point (TULIP) hyper-Calvinism no longer prevails. It turns God's act of creation and human existence into a rather ugly cartoon.

I'm perfectly happy to say, "Perhaps Paul was in fact set aside by God for this mission and steered in this direction through God's influence, or perhaps this was simply Paul's perception of his life."

 

[Whatever]

hristian philosophers and theologians are as guided by the Holy Spirit as any other Christians. Their educated and informed insights can be valuable for all of us. When a Joe Average tells me he'll stick with Scripture (i.e., his own understanding) rather than what those highfalutin philosophers and theologians have to say, I can only chuckle. I don't bow to the philosophers and theologians as though they were the ultimate authorities, but I do value and consider what they have to offer.

I've done a lot of reading of Theologians, commentaries, Systematic Theologies, Biblical Theologies, so I am not disparaging what Theologians say.

 

[Niblo]

Do you believe God knows exactly where you will be six months from now ?

Came across this in an Anglican Forum:

 

[Whatever]

I assure you He does not declare people to do evil to one another. You got the wrong God.

Have you not read the book of Job? God told Satan that "all that he (Job) has is in your hands.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Did not Satan kill all of Job's children? Did not the Lord tell Satan that all Job had was in his own hands? Could God have not stopped it? What is the difference if God decreed it to happen or just allowed it to happen?

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he (the Lord) said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The Lord told this spirit to deceive Ahab so that he would go out and be killed. We read later on that Ahab is killed by a guy shooting an arrow just randomly in the air that hits Ahab.

 

[Whatever]

Came across this in an Anglican Forum:

That could just as easy be Jesus telling anti-Calvinists that by rejecting predestination and election, they were basically rejecting Him. I've heard many say "I cannot love a God like that." Well if God is like that, then aren't they rejecting the true God for the "nicer, more loving, jolly old Santa Clause" god they have made up in their minds"

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Have you not read the book of Job?

Many times.

God told Satan that "all that he (Job) has is in your hands.

Satan is not a human. I said He doesn’t ordain people to do one another evil. Satan is not people.(God doesn’t ordain devils either.)

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Did not Satan kill all of Job's children? Did not the Lord tell Satan that all Job had was in his own hands? Could God have not stopped it? What is the difference if God decreed it to happen or just allowed it to happen?

Everything. The meaning of “allow” is worlds away from “ordain.”

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he (the Lord) said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The Lord told this spirit to deceive Ahab so that he would go out and be killed. We read later on that Ahab is killed by a guy shooting an arrow just randomly in the air that hits Ahab.

This one I understand because I know the ways of God. He did NOT ordain this. But if you believe God ordains moral evil, no man can give you understanding. To come close to God, one must believe He is morally good.

 

[Runner]

The Book of Job is pretty difficult to take literally, and I don't believe it is meant to be. It's a well-crafted example of Jewish wisdom literature. The Satan of Job is "the satan" of Jewish theology, a member in good standing of the divine council who serves as a useful jester/agitator/irritant. For a Christian to take the Book of Job literally requires more theological ball-juggling than I care to do.

That being said, the Book of Job is extremely profound and surely divinely inspired even if it is fiction. It's a meditation on the inexplicable evil in the world and the suffering of seemingly good people. Job's well-meaning friends, who have all the wrong answers, exemplify human pride. God's speech at the end hammers home the main theme of the book: God is completely transcendent. His ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. He doesn't answer to us.

To take Job literally is almost the antithesis of the point the book is making. In any event, I don't see that it has any relevance to the doctrine of predestination. Calvin apparently didn't either. He didn't include Job in his commentaries, but he did rely on Job in his preaching on the themes of human suffering and God's sovereignty.

 

[Whatever]

But if you believe God ordains moral evil, no man can give you understanding. To come close to God, one must believe He is morally good.

This is a philosophical argument not a Scriptural one. I believe God is moral, but at the same time (that we mortals cannot understand) does ordain moral evil. I know I am wasting my time but:

Isa_55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

But to most people His ways are not past finding out. Just use human logic and philosophy and put God in your box.

 

[crossnote]

Came across this in an Anglican Forum:

That would make a nifty bumper sticker, but it can equally be said 'Anglicans have no theology'...(and that boy would be scratching his head, wondering who it was standing next to him)