Doctrine of Predestination

[brightfame52]

It is not for us to judge the infinite wisdom of God Isa 55:9 in whom there is no evil James 1:13. His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

Seems to me you are fearful to acknowledge what the scripture plainly says Ps 105:25

25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

We will leave it at that !

 

[Cooper]

Seems to me you are fearful to acknowledge what the scripture plainly says Ps 105:25

25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

We will leave it at that !

May I ask what your question has to do with Calvinism? Isn't it a little off-topic?

By the way, just so you know, I have no liking for Calvinism, but regardless of that, the truth is always paramount.

 

[Cooper]

Here we are:
Psalm 105 is a song of praise to God for the people’s release from captivity in Egypt. It is a retelling of the exodus.

Verses 19 to 27 of the psalm continue....(19) Joseph remained a slave until his own words had come true, and the LORD had finished testing him. (20) Then the king of Egypt set Joseph free (21) and put him in charge of everything he owned. (22) Joseph was in command of the officials, and he taught the leaders how to use wisdom. (23) Jacob and his family came and settled in Egypt as foreigners. (24) They were the LORD's people, and as such, they grew stronger than their enemies.

Verse 25. Now the time had come for the Israelites to return to their homeland and to that end the Lord caused the Egyptians to hate the Israelites, who they treated very badly. This was the Lord's plan for the start of the exodus. The Psalm continues.

(25) They served the LORD, and he made the Egyptians plan hateful things against them. (26) God sent his servant Moses. He also chose and sent Aaron (27) to his people in Egypt, and they worked miracles and wonders there. Then the Psalm continues to tell of the plagues...

Scriptures from the Contemporary English Version. (CEV)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Is this what you are referring to?

Thus says the LORD: “Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the LORD.” (Jer 9:23-24 ESV)

I do not see God's ways only being higher than man's ways, when ours are in the gutter. Man is wicked, God is holy.

Jer_9:23-24
All subjects of boasting have been proved untrustworthy; but one remains—not wisdom, not valor, not riches, but the knowledge of the revealed God.

The knowledge of God relates to three leading attributes, the combination of which is very instructive. First, loving-kindness. This is not to be understood in a vague and general sense of the love of God to all mankind; the term has a special connotation with regard to the Israelitish people. God shows loving-kindness to those with whom he is in covenant; hence the combination "loving-kindness and faithfulness" (Psa_85:10, corrected version), and as here (comp. Psa_5:7, Psa_5:8; Psa_36:5, Psa_36:6), "mercy and righteousness." Israel is weak and erring, and needs mercies of all sorts, which Jehovah, in his "loving-kindness," vouchsafes. Next, judgment, or justice. Jehovah is a King, helps the poor and weak to their right, and punishes the wrong-doer (comp. Jer_21:12). Then, righteousness—a similar but wider term. This is the quality which leads its subject to adhere to a fixed rule of conduct. God’s rule is his covenant; hence "righteousness" shows itself in all such acts as tend to the full realizing of the covenant with Israel, including the "plan of salvation." It is by no means to be confined to exacting penalties and conferring rewards.
(The Pulpit Commentary)

I understand what you’re saying and I think all Christians will agree to these descriptions of God. But this is more knowing ABOUT Him than knowing Him. How shall I communicate the difference?

If there was a person you’d sort of heard about and decided to explore more, such that you read 66 books by people who knew them personally, you would know a great deal about them. You might be able to write a book about them yourself. But if you happened to meet their mother, you couldn’t really say that you and this person were friends or even that you knew them. Certainly they’d tell their mother that they don’t know you at all. So anyone can agree with your above description without knowing God which in Jeremiah’s words are “knows AND understands” Him. And that’s the rub.

Calvinists here have admitted they don’t understand him by saying it’s beyond their puny mind or we are not to ask (question) Him. But surly this is my point. Jesus said eternal life IS knowing God and they admit they cannot and do not expect to do so.

And that is what I mean. No calvinists can understand the ways of God. They can write what you quoted about Him but ask them explain WHY He does what He does and they cannot answer.

 

[Cooper]

I understand what you’re saying and I think all Christians will agree to these descriptions of God. But this is more knowing ABOUT Him than knowing Him. How shall I communicate the difference?

If there was a person you’d sort of heard about and decided to explore more, such that you read 66 books by people who knew them personally, you would know a great deal about them. You might be able to write a book about them yourself. But if you happened to meet their mother, you couldn’t really say that you and this person were friends or even that you knew them. Certainly they’d tell their mother that they don’t know you at all. So anyone can agree with your above description without knowing God which in Jeremiah’s words are “knows AND understands” Him. And that’s the rub.

Calvinists here have admitted they don’t understand him by saying it’s beyond their puny mind or we are not to ask (question) Him. But surly this is my point. Jesus said eternal life IS knowing God and they admit they cannot and do not expect to do so.

And that is what I mean. No calvinists can understand the ways of God. They can write what you quoted about Him but ask them explain WHY He does what He does and they cannot answer.

We will all know Jesus better when we meet him face to face, but that is in the future, hint, hint.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We will all know Jesus better when we meet him face to face, but that is in the future, hint, hint.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean we cannot know and understand God and his ways here and now. The question is how, not if.

 

[brightfame52]

May I ask what your question has to do with Calvinism? Isn't it a little off-topic?

By the way, just so you know, I have no liking for Calvinism, but regardless of that, the truth is always paramount.

Sir didnt I ask you to just leave it alone ?

 

[Cooper]

Yes, but that doesn’t mean we cannot know and understand God and his ways here and now. The question is how, not if.

Are you a preterist?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are you a preterist?

Are you saying this on your own or did others tell you about me?

 

[Cooper]

Are you saying this on your own or did others tell you about me?

Your avatar says you are the preterist overseer. I'm nothing, a nobody.
It is a lovey evening here, the dog wants a walk, and it will do me good as well

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your avatar says you are the preterist overseer. I'm nothing, a nobody.
It is a lovey evening here, the dog wants a walk, and it will do me good as well

They didn’t have anyone better. I’m better than no one but only just. Some aren’t even sure of that.

How was your walk?

 

[Cooper]

They didn’t have anyone better. I’m better than no one but only just. Some aren’t even sure of that.

How was your walk?

My dog walks me! He takes me to the nearest park and then tells me to throw the ball for 30 mins before he explores in all the undergrowth. Then he allows me to take him home. (grin)

 

[pierac]

Have you not read the book of Job? God told Satan that "all that he (Job) has is in your hands.
Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Did not Satan kill all of Job's children? Did not the Lord tell Satan that all Job had was in his own hands? Could God have not stopped it? What is the difference if God decreed it to happen or just allowed it to happen?

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he (the Lord) said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The Lord told this spirit to deceive Ahab so that he would go out and be killed. We read later on that Ahab is killed by a guy shooting an arrow just randomly in the air that hits Ahab.

Did Job’s Children Really Die?

In the book of Job, his children are killed in chapter 1 vs. 18-19, yet later in the book, it appears his children are still alive in Job 19:17 (KJV) “My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body. 18 Yea, young children despised me; I arose, and they spake against me.”

Many modern English translations falsely try to re-translate this into “the brothers or my mother” but that is not in the Hebrew Text. It is simply changed to make sense for modern readers. (See Strong’s Definitions).

The LXX makes it clearer because it specifies that the children were actually his concubine’s sons and not his children from his wife. LXX: 17 “And I besought my wife, and earnestly intreated the sons of my concubines. 18 But they rejected me for ever; whenever I rise up, they speak against me. 19 They that saw me abhorred me: the very persons whom I had loved, rose up against me.”

I teach you... yet I get banned?
Go figure...
Paul

 

[Whatever]

Did Job’s Children Really Die?

So what? All my point was is that Satan was allowed to do all the bad things he did. When Satan challenged God about Job's integrity, God could have just told Satan to buzz off.

 

[pierac]

So what? All my point was is that Satan was allowed to do all the bad things he did. When Satan challenged God about Job's integrity, God could have just told Satan to buzz off.

You got it all wrong... It was God whom challenged Satan...

Job 1:8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."

Please,
Paul

 

[Whatever]

You got it all wrong... It was God whom challenged Satan...

That isn't a challenge. "Have you considered My servant Job? That's a question. Here is the challenge:

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Verse 11 is the challenge. God simply said (in modern language) "Okay, go ahead and prove it."

 

[brightfame52]

whatever

Nobody is predestined (prepared for destruction - Romans 9:22)

I beg to differ, the vessels of wrath are predestined to destruction, how could they not be ? God appointed them to disobedience 1 Pet 2 8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

God wrote their condemnation of old Jude 1:4

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

You have been saying some good things, very edifying, but this statement seemed to veer away a tad bit.

 

[brightfame52]

jlb

Judas was indeed predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son, and reign and rule with Christ and the other 11 in the age to come.

Thats not true

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Says nothing about Judas here. Judas went to his own place, hell Acts 1:25

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Jesus called him a devil Jn 6:70and the son of perdition, which means he was lost JN 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was of antichrist 2 Thess 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This word perdition is the same word destruction as in Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Judas was always a vessel of wrath being fitted for destruction, not to be conformed to the image of Christ.