Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[Free]

Read my remarks again please.

I did. And the question remains.

 

[Windsong]

I did. And the question remains.

Yes, I see that.

 

[chessman]

The Lord gave them a certificate of divorce, which you said He would do.

Christ has given His bride the sealing of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption in this convenant.

Hebrews 7:22-27 by so much more Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. And indeed many have become priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he, because he continues forever, holds the priesthood permanently. Therefore also he is able to save completely those who draw near to God through him, because he always lives in order to intercede on their behalf. For a high priest such as this indeed is fitting for us, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and having become exalted above the heavens, who does not need every day like the former high priests to offer up sacrifices for his own sins and then for the sins of the people, because he did this once for all when he offered up himself. ​

 

[Free]

The post you responded to was not addressed to you, but Chessman.

I dropped our conversation a while back since I believe we both agree on this subject.



JLB

I'm aware who you were responding to. I just thought I should point things out since you keep going back to the same old, tired argument that has no actual biblical basis.

 

[Free]

As a moderator:

Please stop all off-topic discussions regarding OSAS. The topic is the Trinity.

 

[chessman]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

I know. He takes away every branch in Him.

Those that bear fruit "and" those that do not. That's what a Good vinedresser does in order to bear more fruit.

 

[Free]

Yes, I see that.

Soooooooo...are you going to answer it?

 

[Windsong]

Soooooooo...are you going to answer it?

Well, I guess if my original writing didn't explain itself I'll have to repost.

I forget where it was but I've seen this mentioned also in discussions of this nature and on other sites. The observation that asks first, isn't it funny that an empire that crucified God when he was in his 30's created a religion dedicated to that God less than 600 years after putting him to death for saying he was God?

Others said that and I recalled. I hope that helps your understanding.

 

[chessman]

Relative to the topic of the Trinity

John 15:1, 12 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.​

What's Jesus doing by describing Himself as the vine and His Father as the vinedresser if they are the same person? Anybody?

This is my commandment: that you love one another just as I have loved you. ​

I thought commandments came from God??? Anybody?

 

[Free]

Well, I guess if my original writing didn't explain itself I'll have to repost.

I forget where it was but I've seen this mentioned also in discussions of this nature and on other sites. The observation that asks first, isn't it funny that an empire that crucified God when he was in his 30's created a religion dedicated to that God less than 600 years after putting him to death for saying he was God?

Others said that and I recalled. I hope that helps your understanding.

I know that that is what you said. I'm not asking where you got that information. My point is, you are posting that to make a point, as though you agree with it. What evidence do you have to support the claim that it was the same empire that both crucified Christ and created Christianity?

 

[WIP]

Reminder: This is the Theology forum. Claims and counterclaims are required to provide the Scripture to support the view. The reason for the discussion is to come to terms with what we believe and why we believe it in regards to the written Word of God. Please review the rules for this forum posted in the sticky at the top for more details.

Also, as previously posted, stick to the topic of this thread.

 

[Windsong]

I know that that is what you said. I'm not asking where you got that information. My point is, you are posting that to make a point, as though you agree with it. What evidence do you have to support the claim that it was the same empire that both crucified Christ and created Christianity?

I'm not really in the mood to explain minutia to someone who insists on ignoring the basic fact that I DID NOT SAY IT I SHARED IT!

Don't ask me about it again. Take from it what you will. I've not been able to help you to this point. I won't presume your being obtuse is penetrable. Because quite frankly, it's pretty dang straight forward.
Thanks for understanding. Or not.

Shalom aleikhem,
Windsong

 

[new covenant preacher]

In no way whatsoever have you shown those words are added. Bolding and underlining words doesn't make them additions to Scripture..

Gen 1:26 And God <H430> said <H559>, Let us make <H6213> man <H120> in our image <H6754>, after our likeness <H1823>:

Here is your proof of purposeful deceit by the translator.
H 6213 refers to the word make, nowhere else in scripture will you find two extra words added as in this verse.
Do a Strongs search and see for your self

H6754 refers to the word image, nowhere else in scripture will you find the two extra words, in and our, added as in this verse. No where
The underlined words refer to make, image and likeness. Let us, in our and after our, are all words that are added inappropriately!!

Can any of you understand that in the original Hebrew these added words (plural) are not truly found at all, nor are they used anywhere else in Genesis.

 

[new covenant preacher]

Yahshua is Yahweh manifest in the flesh
Sep 7, 2017 | Posted by John
Yahshua is Yahweh manifest in the flesh, the great I Am. Yahshua came forth from Yahweh and is the God of salvation, the savior of the world.

Ex 3:14 And God (Elohim) said unto Moses, I Am that I Am, and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

Yahshua is Yahweh, the names of the one true God
God the Father and God the Son are the I Am, the words we are simply are never implied. The mystery of the trinity is man’s carnal attempt to try and explain that which he does not comprehend.

John 8:58 Jesus (Yahshua) said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Yahshua clearly stated that He and his Father were one. Jesus told the apostles, “I am the way the truth, and the life.” He also stated that no man could come unto the Father, except it be through Him. After this our Lord told Phillip something truly amazing, He said, “if you have seen me you have also seen the Father” (John 10:30, 14:6-11, 16:28, 17:5, 21).

Yahshua is Yahweh, He is the only savior and the true God of our salvation. The word Yahshua is actually a combination of two stand alone Hebrew words. The first is Yah (H3050), which is a shortened form of Yahweh or God. The second is shua (H 7769) only used two times referring to crying out or riches.



Yahshua is Yahweh, and He truly is the God of great riches.

2 Cor 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

The mystery that has been hid from previous times and generations is now made manifest to his saints. To these would God make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations.

It is Christ (the Messiah) that dwells within us, that is our glorious hope (Col 1:26-27, Math 16:27, Acts 10:38, Rom 8:9-11).

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Yahshua is Yahweh, and both claim to be the beginning and the end or the first and the last because they are one in the same.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

 

[new covenant preacher]

Yahweh is alive blessed be my rock, let God (Elohim) my salvation (Yahshua) be exalted (Psalms 18:46).
1 Cor 10:2-4 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation (Yahshua); I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Yahweh is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation (Yahshua).

The nations shall see the righteousness of the King of Glory, and Yahweh shall give thee a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name (Isaiah 62:2).The Lord has proclaimed to the end of the world, speak to the daughters of Zion, your salvation (Yahshua) is coming. His reward is with him, and his work is before him (Isa 62:11).

The word salvation in this verse is referring to Yahshua who is a person and not a thing or an event. Yahshua is Yahweh, and He will return to reward and to punish.

Math 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

It was revealed unto Simeon by the Holy Ghost, that he would not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ (the anointed one, or messiah). And when he held Him in his arms he blessed God and said, my eyes have seen thy salvation (Luke 2:25-30).

This man’s salvation was Yahshua, he had seen God manifest in the flesh.

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord (Yahweh); and beside me there is no saviour.

Yahshua is Yahweh, He also is the savior of the world; this revelation indeed represents an incredible mystery that is spiritually discerned.

Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Savior, who is also the Lord Jesus Christ our hope (1 Tim 1:1).

2 Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

But we look for that blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of the great God who is also our Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13). Jesus Christ is Yahshua, the anointed one from on high.

 

[Free]

I'm not really in the mood to explain minutia to someone who insists on ignoring the basic fact that I DID NOT SAY IT I SHARED IT!

Don't ask me about it again. Take from it what you will. I've not been able to help you to this point. I won't presume your being obtuse is penetrable. Because quite frankly, it's pretty dang straight forward.
Thanks for understanding. Or not.

Shalom aleikhem,
Windsong

First, it would be great if you knocked off the personal attacks. Second, you need to reread what I actually wrote. I never said you said that. I am well aware you shared it. I very clearly stated that since you shared it, you must have done so to make a point. To share it implies that you agree with it, and if you agree with it, you need to provide evidence for it. If you don't agree with it, then why in the world did you even post it?

 

[Free]

Gen 1:26 And God <H430> said <H559>, Let us make <H6213> man <H120> in our image <H6754>, after our likeness <H1823>:

Here is your proof of purposeful deceit by the translator.
H 6213 refers to the word make, nowhere else in scripture will you find two extra words added as in this verse.
Do a Strongs search and see for your self

H6754 refers to the word image, nowhere else in scripture will you find the two extra words, in and our, added as in this verse. No where
The underlined words refer to make, image and likeness. Let us, in our and after our, are all words that are added inappropriately!!

Can any of you understand that in the original Hebrew these added words (plural) are not truly found at all, nor are they used anywhere else in Genesis.

You have once again proven no such thing. Your entire argument is based on your erroneous understanding of Strong's. You don't seem to understand that just because there isn't a Strong's number beside a word, it does not mean that word is not in the Hebrew (or Greek) texts.

Your "version" of the text makes no sense whatsoever--"God said make man image likeness." That alone should tell you that you are wrong. There isn't a Strong's number beside "And," so why do you not argue that it should be removed as well?

Here is the Tanakh in English, from a Jewish source:

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165

That completely blows your point apart.

 

[24HourJesus]

That's it? No actual response?

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh
4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, (ESV)

Notice that Paul says that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh." That means Jesus was truly human. That he was also "declared to be the Son of God" shows that he is also truly God.


Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (ESV)

Shows that the eternally pre-existent Word--the Son--became flesh, that is, became human.


Phi 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Can only be understood as God the Son becoming human.


Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (ESV)

Again, this clearly shows that Jesus was truly human.


1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (ESV)

Pretty self-explanatory.


You seem to be promoting Docetism, or in the least a form of it, which was condemned as heresy long ago.

That was the response actually.
Christians that believe in God as three separate and distinct persons aren't likely to be persuaded otherwise. The doctrine they hold to is something they believe is part and parcel to the destiny of their soul and conflating the two , doctrine and where they're spend eternity, make the challenge to persuade otherwise a compound problem.
Docetism was a trinitarian heresy. As is Tritheism. Which seems to be what this thread argues.

 

[WIP]

I am going to post this again. The Theology forum requires that members posting points and counter-points provide the Scripture reference to support the claim. See 2 Timothy 3:16.

There are also rules about how we treat each other. We are all Christians and as such we have an obligation to share our faith with love and respect. See 1 Peter 3:15.

Further violation will result in disciplinary action.

 

[Free]

That was the response actually.
Christians that believe in God as three separate and distinct persons aren't likely to be persuaded otherwise.

Is there any other type of Christian?

The doctrine they hold to is something they believe is part and parcel to the destiny of their soul and conflating the two , doctrine and where they're spend eternity, make the challenge to persuade otherwise a compound problem.

Do you think one can believe whatever they want about Jesus, about who he is, and expect to be saved? He is the central figure of the entire Scriptures, the one through whom alone we can find salvation.

I posted in another thread a handful of passages--John 1:12, John 3:18, Rom. 10:9-13, 1 Cor. 15, and Gal. 1:6-9--which show that we must believe what the Bible says about who Jesus is in order to be saved.

Docetism was a trinitarian heresy. As is Tritheism. Which seems to be what this thread argues.

Docetism is a Christological heresy; it doesn't matter whether or not one is trinitarian. Tritheism is a Christian heresy in the same sense--one need not be a trinitarian to see that it goes completely against the Bible's clear teaching of monotheism.