Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[Jim Parker]

rome didnt surrender one piece of land to Cathage and thats what you dont seem to get.

MAybe I didn't "get it" because it's a different topic.

 

[24HourJesus]

Is there any other type of Christian?

Yes, the Christian that holds to the scriptures.

Do you think one can believe whatever they want about Jesus, about who he is, and expect to be saved? He is the central figure of the entire Scriptures, the one through whom alone we can find salvation.

The teaching out there now that claims we can do something and lose our eternal salvation isn't the teaching of Christ. The Trinity isn't the teaching of Christ. Therefore, per your initial query above, and tied with this one, there are nominal Christians, those that assume the name because they think they're Christian but they're actually not in the covenant for following false doctrine. Not their fault if they were led wrong. Entirely their fault if they're teaching false doctrine expecting to get others to follow that instead of Jesus.

I posted in another thread a handful of passages--John 1:12, John 3:18, Rom. 10:9-13, 1 Cor. 15, and Gal. 1:6-9--which show that we must believe what the Bible says about who Jesus is in order to be saved.

Very often when people do that it is because they're cherry picking what they need to put together to support what is a false teaching they've been following for years. Their first mistake is to introduce their argument with, what we must do to be saved.
We don't do a thing. We are saved by faith in Jesus. And we come to Jesus because God calls us through his grace. It is really a very simple series of teachings Jesus provided that show that.

Docetism is a Christological heresy; it doesn't matter whether or not one is trinitarian. Tritheism is a Christian heresy in the same sense--one need not be a trinitarian to see that it goes completely against the Bible's clear teaching of monotheism.

That's why tritheism, Trinity, is heresy.
God is God. He was never three persons. EVER.

 

[Free]

Yes, the Christian that holds to the scriptures.

Then that would be the trinitarian.

The Trinity isn't the teaching of Christ.

Perhaps not explicitly but the foundations certainly are there. He explicitly and implicitly claimed to be God, he taught that the Father was God, obviously, and taught that the Holy Spirit was one like himself. Yet he always kept the three "persons" distinct--none of the three can be said to be the other(s). He also taught there was only one God.

There really is only one conclusion, or at least one best answer out of the existing understandings of the nature of God.

Therefore, per your initial query above, and tied with this one, there are nominal Christians, those that assume the name because they think they're Christian but they're actually not in the covenant for following false doctrine. Not their fault if they were led wrong. Entirely their fault if they're teaching false doctrine expecting to get others to follow that instead of Jesus.

First, this seems to contradict the quote of yours that follows. You assert on the one hand that people are "not in the covenant [not Christian] for following false doctrine." Yet on the other hand, you seem to be arguing against my assertion that what we believe about Jesus actually does matter for salvation.

Second, you're begging the question regarding following false doctrine instead of Jesus. Which Jesus? If false doctrine keeps one from salvation, it follows then that false doctrine about who Jesus is can keep one from salvation.

Very often when people do that it is because they're cherry picking what they need to put together to support what is a false teaching they've been following for years. Their first mistake is to introduce their argument with, what we must do to be saved.
We don't do a thing. We are saved by faith in Jesus. And we come to Jesus because God calls us through his grace. It is really a very simple series of teachings Jesus provided that show that.

I agree that it is only by God's grace we are saved but you seem to be suggesting that it doesn't matter what we believe about Jesus, about who he is, we just need to have faith in Jesus. Is that correct?

It is hard not to notice that you didn't engage with the texts I have nor provide any in support of your assertions.

That's why tritheism, Trinity, is heresy.
God is God. He was never three persons. EVER.

Firstly, trinitarianism is certainly not tritheism. To make such a claim strongly suggests one doesn't know what the doctrine of the Trinity states.

Secondly, you are here contradicting your earlier assertion, provided I was correct in my assessment, that it doesn't matter what we believe about Jesus to be saved. Here you are saying it does matter.

Thirdly, once again, these are mere conjectures; no evidence has been given to either refute trinitarianism or to support another position, which is rather the purpose of this forum.

 

[24HourJesus]

Then that would be the trinitarian.

Show where Jesus referred to three different person explicitly.

Perhaps not explicitly but the foundations certainly are there. He explicitly and implicitly claimed to be God, he taught that the Father was God, obviously, and taught that the Holy Spirit , Paraclete, was one like himself. Yet he always kept the three "persons" distinct--none of the three can be said to be the other(s). He also taught there was only one God.

There is a huge range afforded that teaching that would claim it can imply what Jesus said.
Jesus didn't also teach there was only one God. God taught in the OT there is only one God and no other.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Deuteronomy 6:4
John 1:1 In the beginning was The Word. God is not a noun. God is a Verb. "I AM that I AM".
Ever notice something about the 10 Commandments? They're all prohibitions against nouns.
Those things we could do that we think makes us happy or satisfies our temperament.

For the Trinity to be real God would have to be a power , the Holy Spirit would have to be a separate power. And Jesus would have to be a person all imbued by God. But God isn't a noun. God is. God is a holy spirit. The Holy Spirit does not exist with God. God IS the Holy Spirit.
God IS I AM. God IS as scripture tells us in two different scriptures in the OT, Holy. And Spirit. (We must worship in spirit because God is a spirit - New Testament).
Jesus was begotten upon Mary. It wasn't Mary's egg and a man's sperm that created Immanuel. It was I AM that begat himself within Mary. Monogenes.
So that Jesus appeared in the flesh as anointed, Christos, , anointed, which appeared in the OT scriptures first. To deliver the New Covenant, Christos was in flesh. But the flesh was God. I and the Father are ONE.

First, this seems to contradict the quote of yours that follows. You assert on the one hand that people are "not in the covenant [not Christian] for following false doctrine." Yet on the other hand, you seem to be arguing against my assertion that what we believe about Jesus actually does matter for salvation.

No contradiction. False doctrine is false doctrine. What Jesus taught is what leads to Salvation through grace of the Father.

Second, you're begging the question regarding following false doctrine instead of Jesus. Which Jesus? If false doctrine keeps one from salvation, it follows then that false doctrine about who Jesus is can keep one from salvation.

No, not begging that question at all. Cleaving to false doctrine like Trinitarianism, keeps one from the truth of God in Christ. How does someone follow a man made doctrine and think they're following what Jesus taught?

I agree that it is only by God's grace we are saved but you seem to be suggesting that it doesn't matter what we believe about Jesus, about who he is, we just need to have faith in Jesus. Is that correct?

See above.

It is hard not to notice that you didn't engage with the texts I have nor provide any in support of your assertions.

Sure I did. I also provided texts in this reply.
What you've never provided to support your assertion is the express text in the New Testament wherein Jesus teaches the Trinity.

Firstly, trinitarianism is certainly not tritheism. To make such a claim strongly suggests one doesn't know what the doctrine of the Trinity states.

Not at all.

Secondly, you are here contradicting your earlier assertion, provided I was correct in my assessment, that it doesn't matter what we believe about Jesus to be saved. Here you are saying it does matter.

Twist what I said all you wish. Defending the Triune nature of God requires that.
Contradiction occurs in that teaching that states, God is three.
In any way, shape, or form. When God never said that of himself. Nor did the Jews in the OT.

Thirdly, once again, these are mere conjectures; no evidence has been given to either refute trinitarianism or to support another position, which is rather the purpose of this forum.

Thirdly. Great pun. ;) The purpose of this forum is to produce something in teaching that Jesus never taught?
I disagree. Contradiction is to argue Trinity when Trinity is not expressly taught in scripture anywhere. That's because its teaching didn't appear until long after the Bible came to be.

 

[jaybird]

The Trinity isn't the teaching of Christ.

i agree, Jesus taught to pray to the Father, taught the Father was one and His example was to pray and worship the Father, not a three being godhead.
interesting that non trins are called heretics yet they are following the example of Jesus that trins do not follow.
Matthew 26:36-56

36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch[a] with me.” 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
Luke 11:2
And he said to them, “When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come.

Mark 12:29
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

 

[WIP]

If I recall correctly, I have already posted this so I will consider this my second reminder. Claims for or against the topic require Scripture support.

I will also post this from our ToS that all have agreed to accept.

2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith.

 

[24HourJesus]

Isaiah 43:11 I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no other.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

All of Galatians 3 , especially verse 20:Galatians 3:20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

James says even the demons know what I and others here are referring to as God's true word is so. What other teaching is there? When even demons know God is one.

James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

 

[24HourJesus]

Just as a helpful reminder to my brothers and sisters in Christ here.
Doctrinal Statement (of CFS)

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Mike]

Third time's the charm. Locked for review, gutting, suspending, and other disciplinary actions.

 

[Mike]

I am re-opening this thread after a brief breather to calm the nerves. Some members have been removed from this thread permanently, so they will not be responding here anymore. Let this serve as a reminder to adhere closely to the ToS and the Rules for Posting to the Theology Forum. And to respect that you registered for a site that has the doctrine of the Trinity bolted down into the Statement of Faith.

From what I see posted here, I suspect some of you have never read the TF Rules. If you have, I strongly urge you to read them again in full, and let them influence what you write in the Theology Forum.

Read the Rules for Posting in the TF here!

 

[GodsGrace]

Just as a helpful reminder to my brothers and sisters in Christ here.
Doctrinal Statement (of CFS)

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

We believe in a personal devil, called Satan, who, along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever, and that hell is a literal place of torment where unbelievers will be punished.

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sorry.
I just got here.

Are you saying there are three different , separate, and distinct persons, and EACH one has God in them?

Is the Holy Spirit a person, or is IT the spirit of God?

 

[billybalke]

Sorry.
I just got here.

Are you saying there are three different , separate, and distinct persons, and EACH one has God in them?

Is the Holy Spirit a person, or is IT the spirit of God?

The Holy Spirit is a person, for example see Rom.8:27: the Holy Spirit has a mind. There are about 16 more passages proving the Spirit IS a personality.

 

[jaybird]

Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

i dont think it should be a fundamental belief. Jesus is the Christ, sent from the Father, Son of the Most High, those are fundamental and the bible says these things plainly.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think the Trinity is important. I don't know how fundamental it is. Christianity is monotheistic, so I don't see any way to be a (traditional) Christian w/o embracing The Trinity. I'm not one to use the term 'heretic' and such...I'm not even in church right now myself...I just don't see how one can have a 3 person Godhead w/o The Trinity.

 

[WIP]

i dont think it should be a fundamental belief. Jesus is the Christ, sent from the Father, Son of the Most High, those are fundamental and the bible says these things plainly.

Do you believe Jesus is God?

 

[ezrider]

Do you believe Jesus is God?

If Jesus were God, then why would he say "the words that I speak, they are not mine"?

John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

[jaybird]

Do you believe Jesus is God?

is what i believe fundamental to Christianity?
IMO todays Christianity worry to much what others think, i dont like the idea of being led by a group rather than the spirit.

 

[WIP]

If Jesus were God, then why would he say "the words that I speak, they are not mine"?

John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I believe He also said they were His Father's words. I'm going from memory.

If Jesus is not God, then we are in big trouble for worshiping Him.

 

[ezrider]

I believe He also said they were His Father's words. I'm going from memory.

If Jesus is not God, then we are in big trouble for worshiping Him.

That would be true, if you were to worship the image of a man as God. For God is Spirit, and must be worshiped in Spirit and in truth.

Romans 1:21-23
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

 

[chessman]

If Jesus were God, then why would he say "the words that I speak, they are not mine"?

He didn't say all the words that I speak, they are not mine. All you have to do is read the context:

John 14:24-25 The one who does not love me does not keep my words, and the word that you hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me. These things I have spoken to you while residing with you. ​

He's talking to specific individuals at a specific time, saying specific "things" that are The Father's words. What are "these things"? Hint: read the next verse.!