Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[JLB]

Yes, to deny the Trinity would be to deny the "deity" of Jesus, but not necessarily the "divinity." I believe the Bible and the early Christian writings are quite clear that He is the "divine Son of God, worthy of worship," less clear that He is the "Second Person of the Trinity." By "essential," I mean "a belief that would cause me to conclude that you are not a fellow Christian" (implying that I believe God would reject you as one as well). While I accept the Trinity as the best understanding for purposes of my own theology, I would have a hard time saying that someone who "merely" believes Jesus is the divine Son of God is not a Christian.

Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth?

To me this is an important part of the faith.


Thanks for your input here.


JLB

 

[Runner]

It's more than an indication. He stated His claim multiple times and in multiple Gospels directly. So directly that those Jews who didn't believe His claims immediately picked up stones to stone Him for claiming to be God. There can be no doubt that He said what He meant and meant what He said.

Again, I am not arguing "against" the doctrine of the Trinity - I accept it - but this overstates the reality. The following is from a discussion at the ultra-conservative Christian Research Institute, http://www.equip.org/article/jesus-as-god/, a discussion that fully supports the deity of Jesus (and its "essential" nature) but nevertheless recognizes the following reality:

In the current scholarly debate, the answer to Jesus’ question, “Who do you say that I am?” has encountered a few stumbling blocks. For example, Jesus never used the term “God” when referring to Himself, none of the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, or Luke) ever explicitly gives the title “God” to Jesus, no sermon in the Book of Acts attributes the title “God” to Jesus, no existing Christian confession(s) of Jesus as “God” exist earlier than the late 50s and, although there are seventeen texts that are considered to be possible “Jesus-God” passages, only four of them appear in the approximately fifty Greek New Testament manuscripts that predate the fourth century. Also, and perhaps the biggest obstacle in ascribing the title “God” to Jesus, the existing New Testament manuscripts differ in all potential passages that explicitly call Jesus “God.” What is at stake, if these stumbling blocks are not removed, is that the traditional and essential Christian doctrine of the divinity of Christ is undermined.​

 

[Runner]

Do you believe Jesus is the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth?

To me this is an important part of the faith.


Thanks for your input here.


JLB

As I have stated multiple times, I accept the doctrine of the Trinity as the best understanding of the nature of God. Whether it is an "important" part of the faith is a different question from whether it is an "essential" part of the faith. I do not regard whether someone accepts the mysterious doctrine of the Trinity as a litmus test for whether he or she is a fellow Christian. Colossians 1:16 (NKJV) explicitly states, "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Even the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that, without accepting the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[chessman]

Righteous Jews worshipped, praised, loved and gave sacrifical thanks to one (and only one God, Yahweh):

Psalm 118:1 Give thanks to Yahweh for he is good, for his loyal love is forever.​

One of the things (the most important thing) that set the Jewish nation apart from all other nations (going back to Abraham at least, even Noah and Adam one could argue) was their insistence on monotheism to Yahweh. (That is, when they were not in rebellion) A sacrifice or worship given to any other so-called 'god' with another name was breaking the 1st commandment to which there was no means of sanctification (death WAS the penalty, period). No way to atone for that sin.

Micah 4:5 For all the nations walk, each in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of Yahweh our God, forever and ever.​

Got it??? Yahweh was, is and forever will be the true God (the one and only). Literally 100s of verses make this point in the OT and none (zero) say otherwise. Yahweh is God (capital God), period. However, "God" is not his name. So is Yahweh (who is God) triune??? That is the topic of this thread.

Psalm 118:27-29 Yahweh is God, and he has given us light. Bind the festal sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar. You are my God, and I will give thanks to you. You are my God; I will exalt you. Give thanks to Yahweh for he is good, for his loyal love is forever. ​

Yahweh (God) has given us (now that Christ has come):
1. Light and
2. the festal Sacrifice (the Lamb of God).

Genesis 1:2-3 Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light!” And there was light.​

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, “God will provide the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went together.

John 1:29-32 On the next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This one is the one about whom I said, ‘After me is coming a man who is ahead of me, because he existed before me.’ And I did not know him, but in order that he could be revealed to Israel, because of this I came baptizing with water.” And John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending like a dove from heaven and remaining upon him.​

So are Christians receiving salvation by loving, giving thanks to, worshiping and praising "the spirit of God" that "brought light" into the world and "the festal Sacrifice"? That is by walking in, loving, giving thanks to, worshiping and praising Jesus Christ, The Lamb of God??? Is Jesus the -weh (I mean way) to Yah??? I say Yes! Certainly John the Baptist had no problem worshipping Jesus.

Psalm 118:19-26 Open to me the gates of righteousness, that I may enter through them and give thanks to Yah. This is the gate of Yahweh, through which the righteous will enter. I will give thanks to you for you have answered me, and you have become my salvation. The stone the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This is from Yahweh; it is wonderful in our eyes. This is the day Yahweh has worked; let us rejoice and be glad in him. O Yahweh, please save; O Yahweh, please grant success. Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh. We bless you from the house of Yahweh.​

Okay, got it??? The way to salvation (for us and even for king David) is by entering through the gate of Yah-weh. Only Yah's wey saves!

Okay, so who's this Jesus guy??? Is He the weh (I mean The Way), the gate, the stone, the sacrifice that saves us? I say yes!

And so did 100's of Jews like John the Baptist, Paul, John, and Matthew who also worshipped Jesus Christ (once they understood who He was).

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes, to deny the Trinity would be to deny the "deity" of Jesus, but not necessarily the "divinity." I believe the Bible and the early Christian writings are quite clear that He is the "divine Son of God, worthy of worship," less clear that He is the "Second Person of the Trinity." By "essential," I mean "a belief that would cause me to conclude that you are not a fellow Christian" (implying that I believe God would reject you as one as well). While I accept the Trinity as the best understanding for purposes of my own theology, I would have a hard time saying that someone who "merely" believes Jesus is the divine Son of God is not a Christian.

there's not much of a difference between deity and divine. It's a distinction without a difference. It's essential because Jesus asked "Who do you say that I am?" We ought to know what the Bible teaches about the nature of Christ and believe that. He's not just a prophet nor a good man. He's the eternal Son in the same way that God the Father is eternal (as is the Holy Spirit eternal).

If you don't have a correct view of Jesus, who do you say that He is? (this is a rhetorical question and not aimed at you)

 

[WIP]

As I have stated multiple times, I accept the doctrine of the Trinity as the best understanding of the nature of God. Whether it is an "important" part of the faith is a different question from whether it is an "essential" part of the faith. I do not regard whether someone accepts the mysterious doctrine of the Trinity as a litmus test for whether he or she is a fellow Christian. Colossians 1:16 (NKJV) explicitly states, "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Even the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that, without accepting the doctrine of the Trinity.

The problem is that it creates a contradiction to deny the Trinity.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1 NKJV

For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16 NKJV

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3 NKJV

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, John 1:14 NKJV

 

[Runner]

Probably I have reached the end of what I can contribute to this thread, but I will conclude with the following:

there's not much of a difference between deity and divine. It's a distinction without a difference. It's essential because Jesus asked "Who do you say that I am?"

Grammatically, there is a difference. A deity is a god or goddess, which is why I believe you are correct to say that Jesus cannot be a deity (God) apart from the Trinity. A deity is divine, but divine can also mean "of, relating to, or proceeding from" God. I don't believe it would be an oxymoron for someone (not me) to conclude, "I believe Jesus is the divine Son of God, by whom and through whom all things were created and worthy of worship, but not the Second Person of the Trinity."

"Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'" Matt. 16:16, NASB. He did not answer, "You are the Second Person of the Holy Trinity" or even "You are God." As William Craig discusses, the term Christ (Messiah) would not have been understood by a Jew to refer to a divine being, and even Son of God would not necessarily have been understood in divine terms. Dr. Craig makes the case that it is Jesus' repeated references to Himself as the Son of Man that provide the strongest evidence He understood Himself in divine terms.

The problem is that it creates a contradiction to deny the Trinity.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1 NKJV

For by Him (Jesus) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16 NKJV

In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3 NKJV

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, John 1:14 NKJV

Again, I'm not arguing against the Trinity, but I don't see an inevitable inconsistency. It depends on your understanding of the phrase "the beginning." God by definition has no beginning; He is eternal. It seems clear to me that in both Genesis and John, "the beginning" is referring (as it almost has to be) to the creation of the universe and the beginning of time as we know it. It cannot be referring to "the beginning" of God, since God has no beginning. One can believe that all of the verses you cite are literally true but that the Son was begotten by the Father long before "the beginning" to which Genesis and John are referring. Indeed, as Colossians 1:16 indicates, He was begotten even before the heavenly host since they were created by, through and for Him. (Even the Jehovah's Witnesses concede all this.) The question is whether He was "eternally begotten" as the Second Person of the Trinity or simply "begotten" by the Father as the Son by whom, through whom and for whom all else was created. There are sound reasons for concluding that the Second Person of the Trinity is the best understanding, but I am unwilling to say (you may be) that this understanding is essential to being a Christian or that someone who "merely" believes Jesus is the divine Son of God, Messiah and Redeemer is not a Christian.

 

[WIP]

Probably I have reached the end of what I can contribute to this thread, but I will conclude with the following:


Grammatically, there is a difference. A deity is a god or goddess, which is why I believe you are correct to say that Jesus cannot be a deity (God) apart from the Trinity. A deity is divine, but divine can also mean "of, relating to, or proceeding from" God. I don't believe it would be an oxymoron for someone (not me) to conclude, "I believe Jesus is the divine Son of God, by whom and through whom all things were created and worthy of worship, but not the Second Person of the Trinity."

"Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'" Matt. 16:16, NASB. He did not answer, "You are the Second Person of the Holy Trinity" or even "You are God." As William Craig discusses, the term Christ (Messiah) would not have been understood by a Jew to refer to a divine being, and even Son of God would not necessarily have been understood in divine terms. Dr. Craig makes the case that it is Jesus' repeated references to Himself as the Son of Man that provide the strongest evidence He understood Himself in divine terms.



Again, I'm not arguing against the Trinity, but I don't see an inevitable inconsistency. It depends on your understanding of the phrase "the beginning." God by definition has no beginning; He is eternal. It seems clear to me that in both Genesis and John, "the beginning" is referring (as it almost has to be) to the creation of the universe and the beginning of time as we know it. It cannot be referring to "the beginning" of God, since God has no beginning. One can believe that all of the verses you cite are literally true but that the Son was begotten by the Father long before "the beginning" to which Genesis and John are referring. Indeed, as Colossians 1:16 indicates, He was begotten even before the heavenly host since they were created by, through and for Him. (Even the Jehovah's Witnesses concede all this.) The question is whether He was "eternally begotten" as the Second Person of the Trinity or simply "begotten" by the Father as the Son by whom, through whom and for whom all else was created. There are sound reasons for concluding that the Second Person of the Trinity is the best understanding, but I am unwilling to say (you may be) that this understanding is essential to being a Christian or that someone who "merely" believes Jesus is the divine Son of God, Messiah and Redeemer is not a Christian.

The definition of beginning is not a concern. It's who God is. What I posted points to God doing the creating and then Jesus doing the creating. Both didn't do it for it says in Genesis that God did it and there is only one God. So how can Jesus have done it if God did it? Unless....Jesus is God!

But Jesus said He was sent by the Father from Heaven telling us essentially that the Father is God. How can that be if Jesus is God? Both are God and yet Jesus refers to the Father as having superiority to Him. He even prays to the Father. How can that be unless Jesus and the Father are each unique and both being God how can they be unique?

Such is the mystery of the trinity. All three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are God and yet all three are unique persons within the Godhead. As I've said before, I believe trinity is man's best effort to define the essence of who God is using human understanding and I believe it will all make sense and be clear to us when we see Him face to face. Cool!!

 

[Runner]

I believe trinity is man's best effort to define the essence of who God is using human understanding and I believe it will all make sense and be clear to us when we see Him face to face. Cool!!

Absolutely, which is why I'm reluctant to be dogmatic about it. Even as one who accepts the Trinity, I'm fully prepared for the reality (as well as a lot of other realities) to be quite different from what most of us are now picturing. I personally have a more difficult time picturing the Holy Spirit as being distinct from the Father, but there you go. I did miss the point you were making by the verses you cited, so thanks for that clarification.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The definition of beginning is not a concern. It's who God is. What I posted points to God doing the creating and then Jesus doing the creating. Both didn't do it for it says in Genesis that God did it and there is only one God. So how can Jesus have done it if God did it? Unless....Jesus is God!

But Jesus said He was sent by the Father from Heaven telling us essentially that the Father is God. How can that be if Jesus is God? Both are God and yet Jesus refers to the Father as having superiority to Him. He even prays to the Father. How can that be unless Jesus and the Father are each unique and both being God how can they be unique?

Such is the mystery of the trinity. All three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are God and yet all three are unique persons within the Godhead. As I've said before, I believe trinity is man's best effort to define the essence of who God is using human understanding and I believe it will all make sense and be clear to us when we see Him face to face. Cool!!

Wouldn't it be fair to say however that Jesus prayed to the Father in his (Jesus') humanity. For example, who died on the Cross? God cannot die and yet Jesus died. If Jesus is God, didn't God die? No, Jesus was fully human and fully God and his human body died. His human body rose from the dead. His human body sits on the right hand of The Father. Is this a fair way to put it in your view?

 

[jaybird]

what exactly is the "divinity" of Jesus?
does this mean He is a heavenly being or does this mean He is the Most High?

 

[chessman]

I am not arguing "against" the doctrine of the Trinity - I accept it

Okay. I believe you. I don't believe I said you didn't accept it. It's a great opportunity to discuss the "Trinity" then. No hard feelings one way or the other.

Probably I have reached the end of what I can contribute to this thread, but I will conclude with the following:

I understand if you have other obligations. But it seems like a 10 on the scale of 1-10 for further discussion.

this overstates the reality.

I don't believe what I said over-states the reality of the Text. You'd have to show me where, exactly. On the otherhand, I agree with Craig's point that Jesus didn't go around introducing Himself with; 'Hi, how's your day going. My name is Jesus and I am God. What's your name.' BUT, He did show it and even made claims of it.

Jesus never used the term “God” when referring to Himself

This is a non-issue (even if were true which it's not). Because prior to His resurrection and ascension (which is the majority of what the verses record as history as they progress through His incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension) He had not proved He is God. Though He never denied it! It's vastly more clear that He is God from what His followers taught after His resurrection than before, is my point.

none of the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, or Luke) ever explicitly gives the title “God” to Jesus

Wrong. (Although I realize you were quoting someone else)

Matthew 23:38-39 Behold, your house has been left to you desolate! For I [Jesus] tell you, you will never see me [Jesus] from now on until you say, ‘Blessed is the one [Jesus] who comes in the name of the Lord!’” ​

And there's more.

no existing Christian confession(s) of Jesus as “God” exist earlier than the late 50s

Hogwash.

"Jesus is Lord" is the earliest (and simplest) Christian confession that Jesus is God.

 

[JohnDB]

Hear oh Israel,
The Lord, The Lord God is One.

"Let there be Light"...and if you think that God spent a whole day creating photons...your god is kinda small.... because John in his first chapter of his Gospel explains that this is Jesus, who was crucified before the first bit of Earth was made. IOW our redemption was planned before the first sin.

 

[billybalke]

Wouldn't it be fair to say however that Jesus prayed to the Father in his (Jesus') humanity. For example, who died on the Cross? God cannot die and yet Jesus died. If Jesus is God, didn't God die? No, Jesus was fully human and fully God and his human body died. His human body rose from the dead. His human body sits on the right hand of The Father. Is this a fair way to put it in your view?

Wouldn't it be fair to say however that Jesus prayed to the Father in his (Jesus') humanity. For example, who died on the Cross? God cannot die and yet Jesus died. If Jesus is God, didn't God die? No, Jesus was fully human and fully God and his human body died. His human body rose from the dead. His human body sits on the right hand of The Father. Is this a fair way to put it in your view?

I'll offer my understanding of much of the above in our discussion, until then I'll try to be silent--Be blessed, Billy

 

[WIP]

Wouldn't it be fair to say however that Jesus prayed to the Father in his (Jesus') humanity. For example, who died on the Cross? God cannot die and yet Jesus died. If Jesus is God, didn't God die? No, Jesus was fully human and fully God and his human body died. His human body rose from the dead. His human body sits on the right hand of The Father. Is this a fair way to put it in your view?

Yes, just another part of the mystery of God. I personally have no problem believing and understanding how Jesus can be both fully human and fully God. I can't explain it to anyone but I do understand and believe it without reservation. I can only surmise that I have been taught by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus also said that He was going to the Father. Did He go in human form? Was He in human form when he appeared to His disciples after His resurrection? Humans don't have the ability to just appear or walk through walls.

 

[chessman]

I don't believe it would be an oxymoron for someone (not me) to conclude, "I believe Jesus is the divine Son of God, by whom and through whom all things were created and worthy of worship, but not the Second Person of the Trinity."

Is Jesus a person??? Yes.
Is Jesus the Son of God??? Yes.
Is "the Son of God" (a title) for God??? Yes.

So yes, it's a contradiction of logic:

 

[chessman]

Humans don't have the ability to just appear or walk through walls.

Resurrected ones do. They can "ride on the clouds":

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even every one who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Yes, amen.
​

1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus also God will bring those who have fallen asleep through Jesus together with him. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain until the Lord’s coming, will not possibly precede those who have fallen asleep.

Daniel 7:13 “I continued watching in the visions of the night, and look, with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man was coming, and he came to the Ancient of Days, and was presented before him.​

 

[ezra]

Is Jesus a person??? Yes.
Is Jesus the Son of God??? Yes.
Is "the Son of God" (a title) for God??? Yes.

So yes, it's a contradiction of logic:

and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” who was the voice?

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

For {God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son} , so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you to the age--
{ the trinity } GOD gave this is one His son this is two Jesus left us a helper /comforter this is three. the 3 act together as one but yet separate much like the egg we have thee shell the egg white and the yoke they are not 3 GODS

 

[chessman]

what exactly is the "divinity" of Jesus?

It's an attribute (a quality if you will) of Deity attribute to Jesus (and other persons, places or things too).

Humanity is an attribute of being human.
Divinity is an attribute of being diety (God).

It's NOT a proof of the Trinty that Jesus was/is divine. Nor does it prohibit the Trinity.

Romans 1:20 For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse.​

Now the eternality of the Son, that's a good argument for the 2nd person of the Trinity. Which is why Jesus, John the Baptist, John the apostle and many others claim Jesus is the Son.

does this mean He is a heavenly being or does this mean He is the Most High?

Neither. It simple means Jesus has Godly (diety) attributes. Which he does. So do lots of other things, like the ark, the church, the Temple, etc.

Will you answer a few questions?

Psalm 47:2 For Yahweh Most High is awesome, a great king over all the earth.​

Do you consider the Most High to be God?

 

[Randy]

The earliest confession=>who do you say that I am?
Peter=>Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

I actually agree in part that God the Father has spoken to us by Jesus and Gods holy Spirit. "The Spirit of the Father"
REf:God has manifested to mankind in 3 persons.
While Jesus does seem to regard the SPIRIT of the Sovereign Lord or Holy Spirit as separate from His person The "Father does not".
Fathers promise=>In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit"
Wheres as Jesus the "son" has His own spirit=>"Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"
Jesus and the Father are One in the same manner the believer and JESUS are One.
John 17NIV'
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me

I believe Jesus is Gods firstborn and so state JESUS has always been the SON. HE has a beginning at some point in history before the world began.
I believe JESUS is ALL that the FATHER is. That all the fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him. "given from another will" THE FATHERS FULLNESS. and in that context Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of GOD THE FATHER. or Mighty GOD.
However in the context of JESUS as Gods offspring (firstborn) JESUS has always been Gods Son and is not GOD

Hebrews 1:6 NIV
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him.
or and again when God brings the Firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him.

AS Paul wrote about JESUS"S being JESUS is the firstborn of all creation. KJV has Firstborn of every creature.
KJV-COl 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

So is JESUS GOD?
HE never dies - (HIS Spirit) kept alive by the Father who indwells JESUS
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
For Christ also suffered once
YES, Jesus is ALL that the Father is. (Fullness was pleased to dwell IN Him)-from another will -given.
NO, HE has always been the son. The firstborn of all creation.


I assure you I have the Spirit of Christ in me (I asked) and have been baptized in the name of the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT.

TO me there is but ONE GOD THE FATHER AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST ANF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER. IT was the FATHER living in the SON doing HIS work so if you have seen the SON you have seen the Father. AS Firstborn JESUS was before Abraham was born.

SO the orthodox version of the trinity is not required for salvation but faith in the Son is. I call JESUS lord and proclaim Him as Gods Christ and the only Son of the Living God who God raised from the dead as proof. The sign of Jonah was given.