Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[ezra]

Oneness in how Jesus taught. The Father living in Him doing His work.
JOHN 14:10 NIV
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus has always been the Son. God firstborn. At some point in history before the world began. A beginning but no end.
The NT does not support the Spirit of God as a separate distinct being from the "Father". Rather God states "my spirit" in regard to the Holy Spirit and Jesus does not.

The verse quoted by the author of Matthew (12:18) in regard to Jesus.
Isaiah 42:1 NIV "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. "With light come accountability"-God who in the past left the sins of the nations unpunished has now through the gospel message holds all people accountable. The nations no longer walk in darkness and ignorance with many false Gods as Jesus is a light to the nations.
Fathers promise=>as Peter quoted as found in the book of acts chapter 2.
Joel 2:28 NIV "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
The SPIRIT Jesus sent He received from the Father. ref acts 2.
How God writes this new covenant on the hearts of the people as God had foretold through His prophet Jeremiah
Jeremiah 31:31-33 NKJV
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The SPIRIT was sent in Jesus's name and by Jesus's will into the heart of a believer. AND that Spirit in a believer represents the will or presence of JESUS. Hence the "Spirit of Christ".

aww apostolic trinity 3 Gods nice try with scriptures

 

[Papa Zoom]

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[chessman]

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[ezra]

Who?
the Father was the incarnate Christ?
Or
the Son is the incarnate Christ?
Or
The voice from Heaven was the incarnate Christ?

Do you believe God made the world through His Son?



No offense, but I can't decipher your punctuation and grammar to even know what you are trying to say or ask in the above post.

hooked on phonics is a great program to help you cipher no offense :amen buttttttttttt the voice was God speaking about his only begotten son the 2nd person in the trinity

Who?
the Father was the incarnate Christ?
Or
the Son is the incarnate Christ?
Or
The voice from Heaven was the incarnate Christ?

Do you believe God made the world through His Son?


the voice was God speaking of his son t

 

[Papa Zoom]

Thanks.

This one's $10 but I thought it was a good presentation.

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It's free for those on kindle unlimited. I get a notice when there are free things on the net via kindle for Christ from my twitter feed.

Kindle 4 Christ
@Kindle4Christ

 

[jaybird]

The Text doesn't say anything about 'the creating power of the Most High' or Jesus.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.​

not sure why every time i mention "creating power" you go off on these little "thats not in the passage" rants. do you see the very beginning of the passage where it begins with Most High, He spoke to the fathers, He appointed Jesus, the Most High created all things. the creation may have went through the Son but it was the Most High that created everything. the source of it all was the Most High, the Most High is the creator.​

Do you believe God made the world through His Son, yes or no? Please answer.

i believe what the bible says, it says the worlds were created through the Son.

when i said that it meant yes, the creation process went rhough Jesus. the answer has been yes all along.

Please start a Theology thread about "our soul" if you'd like. I'll participate and answer any/all Biblically based questions relevant questions as they pertain to our souls. But I can assure you now, that the Holy Spirit is divine.

your the one that made the statement our soul is just an image and not actually from the Most High. i was simply asking for an explanation. if you dont have one its ok.

Genesis 1:1-2, 26-27 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth— Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. And God said, “Let us make humankind in our image and according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.” So God created humankind in his image, in the likeness of God he created him, male and female he created them.​

 

[WIP]

Resurrected ones do. They can "ride on the clouds":

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even every one who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Yes, amen.
​

1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus also God will bring those who have fallen asleep through Jesus together with him. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain until the Lord’s coming, will not possibly precede those who have fallen asleep.

Daniel 7:13 “I continued watching in the visions of the night, and look, with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man was coming, and he came to the Ancient of Days, and was presented before him.​

As I understand it, our resurrected bodies will be nothing like our human bodies today as we will be changed from frail and corruptible human form to glorious and incorruptible spirit form. See 1 Corinthians 15:42-54 NKJV
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

 

[WIP]

Yeah, but if you exclude people and persecute them and burn them at the stake on account of this doctrine, then what do you think Jesus is going to say when he returns? "Well done, good and faithful servant?" Matthew 25:23? I don't think so.

There's been so much hatred and violence since this 4th century doctrine. Brother against brother, even to this day. And so much self righteousness.

So then we should throw it out because extremists go over-the-top and take things into their own hands? If that's the case, Protestantism should be thrown out because that is what happened but it was never what Martin Luther wanted. Or, let's take it a step further and consider the persecutions at the hands of Christians and throw out Christianity itself. Dare I call to mind the Crusades for example?

The moment we discard the trinity is the moment we condemn ourselves because we reduce Jesus to merely a mortal man. I'm not willing to do that. I believe Jesus was fully God and fully man, God in human flesh, One with the Father.

 

[chessman]

not sure why every time i mention "creating power" you go off on these little "thats not in the passage" rants.

I'm simply trying to be as precise and as clear and as Biblically Text based as possible in our further discussion about the Trinity (God; the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit). It's not a rant and I requested for you to post the Scripture(s) that speak of this phrase ('the creating power of the Most High') so that I know what (or more precisely who) you mean by it, is all.

In just two short interactions we established two very important tri-lateral agreements:

You believe God is "the Most High" and God is our maker. I agree and so does the Scriptures. It's now time to start agreeing on the "who" spoken of in Scriptures. In otherwords to delve into various Texts about God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as distinct persons within the Trinity. Thus I asked you a question about what Heb 1 teaches relative to the Son. I could have picked verses relative to the Father or relative to Holy Spirit. I chose a verse that seems clearly to say something about the Son. That's all (not that it proves Trinity):

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. ​

To which you replied: "i believe what the bible says, it says the worlds were created through the Son."
Which was clear except you used "worlds" plural when the text actually used "world" singular. And even specifically says that it's the world in which God spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways".

I didn't know if your reply was a typo or you place some significance upon this plural worlds deviation from Heb 1:1-2.

Anyway, from theses three simple and precise agreements with these Scriptures, it seems you agree that;

God is "the Most High" and God is our maker and God made the world through the Son.

With respect to the Son (the 2nd person of the Trinity), can you agree that the Son is God? I mean, we can then move on to Scriptures about the Father and/or the Spirit having established that the Son is God, right?

But it's statements like the following that tend to indicate that there's not full agreement with what's been established so far:

the creation may have went through the Son

It's not a 'may have'' situation. The world was made through the Son, right? We really need to be in tri-lateral agreement (you, me, the Text). But moving on based on the assumption that we are in agreement so far (correct me if I'm wrong).

the Most High is the creator

Correct. And as previously agreed; the Most High is God and God made the world through the Son.

Now we need to come to some tri-lateral agreement (you, me, Scripture) on "the Father" and "the Holy Spirit" within the fundamental Christian doctrine of the Trinity. I'd like to proceed with this effort if you're in agreement that:

God is "the Most High" and God is our maker and God made the world through the Son.

This simply based on Heb 1:1-2
and

Psalm 47:2 For Yahweh Most High is awesome, a great king over all the earth.​

and

Psalm 95:6-7 Come in, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Yahweh, our maker. For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. Today if you will hear his voice.​

Having established that God made the world through the Son, we need to look at how God has spoken to the world. So, within Heb 1:1-2, Scripture says;
God "spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways".

Let's look at one of the ways God spoke through one of the prophets to one of the fathers in the earth God made through the Son:

Isaiah 39:5 And Isaiah said to Hezekiah, “Hear the word of Yahweh of hosts:​

[In Isaiah 39-48, God, Yahweh, the Most High, the maker of the Earth through the Son speaks:

Isaiah 44:6 Thus says Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god besides me.
...
Isaiah 45:18 For thus says Yahweh, who created the heavens, he is God, who formed the earth and who made it. He himself established it; he did not create it as emptiness— he formed it for inhabiting. “I am Yahweh and there is none besides me.
..,
Isaiah 48:16 Draw near to me; hear this! I have not spoken in secrecy from the beginning; from the time it came to be, there I have been; And now the Lord Yahweh has sent me and his Spirit.”​

In your opinion, when the world began (In the beginning, prior to creating Adam), who was God speaking to?

When God says; "there I have been", was the Father there in the world, the Son there in the world or the Holy Spirit there in the world?

 

[Randy]

aww apostolic trinity 3 Gods nice try with scriptures

I believe and hold to Paul's creed:
1 cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

and also in Jesus
John 17:3 NIV
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 20:17 NIV
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
John 13:13 NIV
You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.

Matt 28:19NIV
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”, Note the word SON

However It as the Father living in the Son doing His work as Jesus taught they are one in that manner. AND if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father.

 

[ezra]

Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

BINGO THE TRINITY if you want to follow the apostolic teaching of oneness so be it the Trinity has stood the test of time. God gave his son authority ..his son died for us he son left us power through the holy spirit all these make up the trinity { However } yes there will always be a however

 

[ezra]

The moment we discard the trinity is the moment we condemn ourselves because we reduce Jesus to merely a mortal man. I'm not willing to do that. I believe Jesus was fully God and fully man, God in human flesh, One with the Father.

:amen

 

[chessman]

As I understand it, our resurrected bodies will be nothing like our human bodies today as we will be changed from frail and corruptible human form to glorious and incorruptible spirit form.

As I understand it, "our" resurrected bodies will be "our" human bodies changed to "our" spiritual bodies. We will also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

But man shall we be. Just changed to incorruptible and yes able to walk through walls (without need of a door as we've entered through The Door). But walk, nonetheless we will. And see and eat and hear, etc. That was my only point.

 

[Randy]

BINGO THE TRINITY if you want to follow the apostolic teaching of oneness so be it the Trinity has stood the test of time. God gave his son authority ..his son died for us he son left us power through the holy spirit all these make up the trinity { However } yes there will always be a however

I note the word "son". I am following JESUS's teaching of oneness as Jesus states "follow me"
That doesn't mean Jesus always was and alway was God. So how then can He be called "God" in any sense of the word? The how is where we differ =>"The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" From another will and self evident the Father was pleased that all "his" fullness should dwell in His "firstborn" Jesus testifies that it is the Father living in Him doing His work. AS in Hebews 1 God has spoken to us in these last days (which includes the book of Rev) by His son.

 

[chessman]

AS in Hebews 1 God has spoken to us in these last days (which includes the book of Rev) by His son.

Correct. But that's not all Hebrews 1 says:

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.​

Do you believe God made the world through His Son?

 

[jaybird]

Yeah, but if you exclude people and persecute them and burn them at the stake on account of this doctrine, then what do you think Jesus is going to say when he returns? "Well done, good and faithful servant?" Matthew 25:23? I don't think so.

There's been so much hatred and violence since this 4th century doctrine. Brother against brother, even to this day. And so much self righteousness.

i agree, the trinity seems to be at the core of so much destruction and division. if you research church burnings and check the crimes of those murdered you will see nontrinitarianism listed among 90% of them. women and children burned alive, makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[Randy]

Correct. But that's not all Hebrews 1 says:

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.​

Do you believe God made the world through His Son?

Yes I hold that God the Father,(from whom all things came), made the creation through Jesus through whom all things came and in whom or through whom we live. For as (in the same manner) the son lives by the living Father and never dies so those who feed off Jesus live and never die. (our Spirit)
Such creation by Jesus was by Gods Holy Spirit at the command of God and by the will of God and by the power of God. The one Jesus calls His God and our God.

The Holy Spirit will act upon Jesus's will because Jesus has a place on the Fathers throne and all that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son.(given) Jesus received from the Father and so Jesus is what He is by the grace of God. IT is the Father who has glorified His Firstborn above all others. A name given even above the mightiness of angels. - hebrews "about the Son"

 

[Randy]

:amen

The foundation should be "truth" as in Jesus used truth. WE are only discussing the relationship between Father and SON and Holy Spirit. Jesus is still Christ the Lord who was crucified and raised from the dead and is currently, by the command of God, seated at the right hand of power in heaven UNTIL His enemies are made His footstool. No one gets to the "Father" except by Him. And No one enters the kingdom of God except by him. Jesus is the mediator between God and man. HE is Christ the Lord the Son of the living God.

 

[chessman]

Yes I hold that God the Father,(from whom all things came), made the creation through Jesus through whom all things came and in whom or through whom we live.

So therefore you would agree that the Son pre-existed the creation of the world, right?

Same question of the Father and the Holy Spirit, both pre-existed the creation of the world, on your view.

 

[MarkT]

So then we should throw it out because extremists go over-the-top and take things into their own hands? If that's the case, Protestantism should be thrown out because that is what happened but it was never what Martin Luther wanted. Or, let's take it a step further and consider the persecutions at the hands of Christians and throw out Christianity itself. Dare I call to mind the Crusades for example?

The moment we discard the trinity is the moment we condemn ourselves because we reduce Jesus to merely a mortal man. I'm not willing to do that. I believe Jesus was fully God and fully man, God in human flesh, One with the Father.

Jesus said he was the Son of God. The Jews said he was making himself God. True or false. Judge for yourself. Who was justified? Then how is your claim justified?