Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[Randy]

NO!
God did not CREATE Jesus.
Please read my post no. 434.

This is what traditional Christianity teaches.
Anything other than this, is NOT traditional Christianity.

Jesus has His own Spirit="Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"
as opposed to the Spirit of God or Spirit the Father states "My Spirit"
Fathers promise -in the last days "i will pour out MY SPIRIT"
The Spirit Jesus sent HE received from the Father. ACTS 2
So if Jesus always was and always was God how do you believe in One God.
Jesus has a God.
Jesus received authority
and though Jesus is all that the Father is He abides within the framework of the Fathers will
The Father does all that He is pleased to do.
Jesus is called the firstborn. He is before all things not just in the resurrection from the dead.

 

[Randy]

Why not support your views with actual Scripture??? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God:

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him.

Ephesians 2:13, 17-18 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. .. And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
​

There is One God.
There is one Father, one Son, one Holy Spirit.
You have no access to God unless you have the Spirit of Christ.

Fathers promise="'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
Matt 10:20 NIV for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
ACTS 2 :33The spirit Jesus sent He received from the Father.
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
Jesus read from the scroll=Isaiah 61:1 NIV The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

Though Jesus does speak as though the Spirit of God is a separate person from Him the "Father " does not

 

[jaybird]

The same word is used in different sentences. Some sentences using it are about worshipping. Some sentences using it are about greeting. Sometimes when the person(s) is worshipping they "bow the knee" and sometimes when the person is greeting they are "bowing the face". Are you worshipping a pastor when you nod your head in agreement with something he said???

psalm 95 6 is a different word. it means to bow. its a greeting, not worship
the other word means bow down, worship. also its the word used for when Lot meets the angels. according to you, they should have used the other word in this passage but they did not.

The word itself does not mean worship. If the word meant worship then why does David say worship AND bow down?

it does mean worship, did you not see the strongs definition i posted. it means bow down, worship.

If you want to build a case for the Son being an angel, then use a scripture that says the Son was once an angel.

never said He was.

But the fact that angels in the form of men were greeted by Lot at the gate of the city with the traditional greeting of the culture (and that culture wanted to greet them 'more') is not evidence of it. It's simply like shaking hands in the west.

if i met an angel sent from from the Most High i wouldnt give them the same ole same ole traditional gretting thats the same as i give my buddy i go fishing with, i would give them a very high honorable greeting because of who they represented. i guess Lot just wasnt very impressed with them. . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus has His own Spirit="Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"
as opposed to the Spirit of God or Spirit the Father states "My Spirit"
Fathers promise -in the last days "i will pour out MY SPIRIT"
The Spirit Jesus sent HE received from the Father. ACTS 2
So if Jesus always was and always was God how do you believe in One God.
Jesus has a God.
Jesus received authority
and though Jesus is all that the Father is He abides within the framework of the Fathers will
The Father does all that He is pleased to do.
Jesus is called the firstborn. He is before all things not just in the resurrection from the dead.

You have a spirit too.
But you're not God.

I believe in ONE GOD PRECISELY because Jesus always was.
Jesus was commiting His spirit, the MAN Jesus, to HIS FATHER, who was "in heaven", as the 1st person of the Trinity.

These are not easy concepts to understand.
Now you say Jesus is the first born. So you don't understand begotten?
It's OK. Many don't.

What I will say is that the trinity is difficult to gleen from scripture, although it is supported by scripture.

It was understood after Jesus died by the Apostles and the knowledge was passed on to the first Christians and written about by them.

We can't do better than that...

 

[chessman]

Though Jesus does speak as though the Spirit of God is a separate person from Him the "Father " does not

Jesus always speaks the Truth. Poof!

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

So when the Father (which is once again assumed by you but not shown) says "my Son", that's a reference to a separate person yet when He says "my spirit" it's not. Seems inconsistent don't you think? It does to me. Plus, the verse doesn't say this is the Father speaking. In fact what the passage specifically says is that was spoken through the prophet Joel:

Acts 2:16-17 But this is the thing having been spoken through the prophet Joel in Joel 2:28-32: ‘And it shall be in the last days, God says, that I will pour-out from My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your older men will dream with dreams.​

Rather than read what the Text actually says ("God", not the Father), all you are showing is that everywhere you see "God" mentioned in the Text you automatically assume it means the Father. But that's just not correct. And this is what students of Scripture recognized and thus formed the doctrine of the Trinty.

Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour out water on a thirsty land and streams on dry ground. I will pour my spirit out on your descendants and my blessing on your offspring.​

Just as water can be distinct from the Father, so can "my spirit" be. One's a created thing (water, created by God through the Son BTW) one is not (my spirit, uncreated yet God).

 

[Winter Tapioca]

I took my time reading this thread. Days in fact due to the atmosphere and the number of pages. Before I comment on the textual matter , trinity, I feel I have to obtain clarification on a few questionable points that arose in my thoughts given certain replies here.
Is this a forum dedicated to the Catholic tradition? What is the doctrinal position of this site? Is there a denominational ideology that sponsors what I read as statement of faith here?
Thanks for any help.

 

[Randy]

You have a spirit too.
But you're not God.

I believe in ONE GOD PRECISELY because Jesus always was.
Jesus was commiting His spirit, the MAN Jesus, to HIS FATHER, who was "in heaven", as the 1st person of the Trinity.

These are not easy concepts to understand.
Now you say Jesus is the first born. So you don't understand begotten?
It's OK. Many don't.

What I will say is that the trinity is difficult to gleen from scripture, although it is supported by scripture.

It was understood after Jesus died by the Apostles and the knowledge was passed on to the first Christians and written about by them.

We can't do better than that...

If Jesus had a human or man spirit and a human body what part of him was God?

 

[Randy]

Jesus always speaks the Truth. Poof!



So when the Father (which is once again assumed by you but not shown) says "my Son", that's a reference to a separate person yet when He says "my spirit" it's not. Seems inconsistent don't you think? It does to me. Plus, the verse doesn't say this is the Father speaking. In fact what the passage specifically says is that was spoken through the prophet Joel:

Acts 2:16-17 But this is the thing having been spoken through the prophet Joel in Joel 2:28-32: ‘And it shall be in the last days, God says, that I will pour-out from My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your older men will dream with dreams.​

Rather than read what the Text actually says ("God", not the Father), all you are showing is that everywhere you see "God" mentioned in the Text you automatically assume it means the Father. But that's just not correct. And this is what students of Scripture recognized and thus formed the doctrine of the Trinty.

Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour out water on a thirsty land and streams on dry ground. I will pour my spirit out on your descendants and my blessing on your offspring.​

Just as water can be distinct from the Father, so can "my spirit" be. One's a created thing (water, created by God through the Son BTW) one is not (my spirit, uncreated yet God).

The "Fathers" promise per Jesus. Joel 2:28-32:
Act 1:4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

 

[Randy]

Jesus always speaks the Truth. Poof!



So when the Father (which is once again assumed by you but not shown) says "my Son", that's a reference to a separate person yet when He says "my spirit" it's not. Seems inconsistent don't you think? It does to me. Plus, the verse doesn't say this is the Father speaking. In fact what the passage specifically says is that was spoken through the prophet Joel:

Acts 2:16-17 But this is the thing having been spoken through the prophet Joel in Joel 2:28-32: ‘And it shall be in the last days, God says, that I will pour-out from My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your older men will dream with dreams.​

Rather than read what the Text actually says ("God", not the Father), all you are showing is that everywhere you see "God" mentioned in the Text you automatically assume it means the Father. But that's just not correct. And this is what students of Scripture recognized and thus formed the doctrine of the Trinty.

Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour out water on a thirsty land and streams on dry ground. I will pour my spirit out on your descendants and my blessing on your offspring.​

Just as water can be distinct from the Father, so can "my spirit" be. One's a created thing (water, created by God through the Son BTW) one is not (my spirit, uncreated yet God).

MY SON has a different meaning then MY SPIRIT. MY SON would be a different person but MY SPIRIT would be just that HIS SPIRIT.

 

[GodsGrace]

If Jesus had a human or man spirit and a human body what part of him was God?

The part that never sinned.
The part of Him that had the Holy Spirit for a father.
The part of Him that rebuked Satan in the "desert".
The part of Him that healed.
The part of Him that exorcised demons.
The part of Him that hung on a cross.

Need more?

He was fully man and fully Good.
You don't have to understand it,
You just have to accept it.

 

[MarkT]

Okay. I believe Jesus was born on the day Jesus was born too.

Psalm 2:7 I will tell the decree; Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you.
​

I believe the Son was begotten the day Yahweh spoke.

​

What is today to God? This morning? This afternoon? And when did he speak it? In David's time? And who was he speaking to when he said, "He said to me, You are my son". Was he speaking to David? Or was he speaking to our Lord?

I take it 'today' means he appointed a day and so Jesus was born and he fulfilled the Scripture.

 

[Randy]

The part that never sinned.
The part of Him that had the Holy Spirit for a father.
The part of Him that rebuked Satan in the "desert".
The part of Him that healed.
The part of Him that exorcised demons.
The part of Him that hung on a cross.

Need more?

He was fully man and fully Good.
You don't have to understand it,
You just have to accept it.

I would state that the SON who was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for him. The miracles were performed by Holy Spirit at the will of Jesus because he had been granted such authority by the Father. in addition to Jesus's baptism were the Spirit of God descended and remained upon Jesus the Father was in HIM doing His work.
Randy

 

[chessman]

I asked:

Who held together all things before the Son was God, on your view?

You replied:

So what needed to by held together prior to the creation?

God.

Do you think God is unchanging or changing. Simple question.

 

[chessman]

What is today to God?

Luke 2:11-14 that today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, was born for you in the city of David. And this will be the sign for you: you will find the baby wrapped in strips of cloth and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among people with whom he is pleased!” ​

For all the non-Trinitarians, why did the angles praise God by saying "glory to God in the highest AND on earth"??? Was God in the highest AND on earth? Yep! Poof!

who was he speaking to when he said, "He said to me, You are my son".

Obviously the Son, 100's of years prior to Jesus' birth.

Was he speaking to David?

Who's He?

Or was he speaking to our Lord?

David quoted the Father speaking to the Son via inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Poof!

 

[MarkT]

Begotten DOES NOT mean BORN.

It means UNIQUE.
Jesus is unique.
He cannot be born because He existed from before the beginning.

John 1:1
The WORD was WITH God.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, therefore he was 'begotten' or born of God (therefore the Son 'of God'). Begotten - gotten from; as a son is gotten from a father. ie. Isaac begat Jacob. Jacob was gotten from Isaac, the flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone. 2 sam. 5:1 Jacob was the son 'of Isaac'. Eve bore Cain, saying "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD." Gen. 4:1

 

[MarkT]

Luke 2:11-14 that today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, was born for you in the city of David. And this will be the sign for you: you will find the baby wrapped in strips of cloth and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among people with whom he is pleased!” ​

For all the non-Trinitarians, why did the angles praise God by saying "glory to God in the highest AND on earth"??? Was God in the highest AND on earth? Yep! Poof!


Obviously the Son, 1,00's of years prior to Jesus' birth.


Who's He?


David quoted the Father speaking to the Son via inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Poof!

The angels praised God for our Lord.

The text doesn't say, "glory to God in the highest AND on earth". It says,
Luke 2:14
“Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!”

The Son was begotten 100s of years after the LORD's decree.

Who was the Son before he was begotten? Jesus said he existed before Abraham, saying, "Before Abraham was, I am."
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, therefore he was 'begotten' or born of God (therefore the Son 'of God'). Begotten - gotten from; as a son is gotten from a father. ie. Isaac begat Jacob. Jacob was gotten from Isaac, the flesh of his flesh, bone of his bone. 2 sam. 5:1 Jacob was the son 'of Isaac'. Eve bore Cain, saying "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD." Gen. 4:1

Well Mark.
I cannot argue this forever.
You might be a JW.
You might be a Mormon.
You said YES at "Christian" so I have to go by what you stated.

If a person is Christian, it implies that he accepts Christian theology - the study of God. It also implies that he accepts the major Christian doctrine: One of which is the trinity.

You're using begotten in a human sense. God is not human. I said a fews posts back that begotten means unique and that Jesus is of the same nature as God.
You'll have to come to this understanding on your own.
The internet is full of explanations on this. I looked and found this one to be the most concise.

I do not think study should be done on the internet since all kinds of strange ideas can be presented - especially to a new Christian. (not saying you're one).
But I do like how GotQuestions explains begotten in a simple way.

Here it is:

********************************************************
Question: "What does it mean that Jesus is God's only begotten son?"

Answer: The phrase “only begotten Son” occurs in John 3:16, which reads in the King James Version as, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The phrase "only begotten" translates the Greek word monogenes. This word is variously translated into English as "only," "one and only," and "only begotten."

It's this last phrase ("only begotten" used in the KJV, NASB and the NKJV) that causes problems. False teachers have latched onto this phrase to try to prove their false teaching that Jesus Christ isn't God; i.e., that Jesus isn't equal in essence to God as the Second Person of the Trinity. They see the word "begotten" and say that Jesus is a created being because only someone who had a beginning in time can be "begotten." What this fails to note is that "begotten" is an English translation of a Greek word. As such, we have to look at the original meaning of the Greek word, not transfer English meanings into the text.

So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son" (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.

The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.

The bottom line is that terms such as "Father" and "Son," descriptive of God and Jesus, are human terms that help us understand the relationship between the different Persons of the Trinity. If you can understand the relationship between a human father and a human son, then you can understand, in part, the relationship between the First and Second Persons of the Trinity. The analogy breaks down if you try to take it too far and teach, as some pseudo-Christian cults (such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses), that Jesus was literally "begotten" as in “produced” or “created” by God the Father.

source:
https://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html

 

[Randy]

I asked:
You replied:

God.

Do you think God is unchanging or changing. Simple question.

Why do I perceive a hidden agenda behind the question then.?
The Father who is the one and only true God does not change so then His faithfulness endures forever.

 

[WIP]

Something that I noticed happening in this discussion occasionally is there have been statements made and then followed up with exclamations such as "Poof!" or "Wham!" or "Bam!" or something along those lines. Please do not do this. You may think you have effectively scored some kind of point or jab but this is not a sparring match and doing this comes across as arrogant and pompous. We are called to give a defense for the hope that lies within us with gentleness and respect, not to puff out our chests.

Do not reply to this post in the forum.

 

[Randy]

Well Mark.
I cannot argue this forever.
You might be a JW.
You might be a Mormon.
You said YES at "Christian" so I have to go by what you stated.

If a person is Christian, it implies that he accepts Christian theology - the study of God. It also implies that he accepts the major Christian doctrine: One of which is the trinity.

You're using begotten in a human sense. God is not human. I said a fews posts back that begotten means unique and that Jesus is of the same nature as God.
You'll have to come to this understanding on your own.
The internet is full of explanations on this. I looked and found this one to be the most concise.

I do not think study should be done on the internet since all kinds of strange ideas can be presented - especially to a new Christian. (not saying you're one).
But I do like how GotQuestions explains begotten in a simple way.

Here it is:

********************************************************
Question: "What does it mean that Jesus is God's only begotten son?"

Answer: The phrase “only begotten Son” occurs in John 3:16, which reads in the King James Version as, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The phrase "only begotten" translates the Greek word monogenes. This word is variously translated into English as "only," "one and only," and "only begotten."

It's this last phrase ("only begotten" used in the KJV, NASB and the NKJV) that causes problems. False teachers have latched onto this phrase to try to prove their false teaching that Jesus Christ isn't God; i.e., that Jesus isn't equal in essence to God as the Second Person of the Trinity. They see the word "begotten" and say that Jesus is a created being because only someone who had a beginning in time can be "begotten." What this fails to note is that "begotten" is an English translation of a Greek word. As such, we have to look at the original meaning of the Greek word, not transfer English meanings into the text.

So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham's "only begotten son" (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.

The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.

The bottom line is that terms such as "Father" and "Son," descriptive of God and Jesus, are human terms that help us understand the relationship between the different Persons of the Trinity. If you can understand the relationship between a human father and a human son, then you can understand, in part, the relationship between the First and Second Persons of the Trinity. The analogy breaks down if you try to take it too far and teach, as some pseudo-Christian cults (such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses), that Jesus was literally "begotten" as in “produced” or “created” by God the Father.

source:
https://www.gotquestions.org/only-begotten-son.html

Jesus teaching would be from God as Jesus openly stated it was the "FATHER" living IN Him doing His work.
JOHN 17 NIV Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.
Hebrews 1 strengthens such a statement as if the head of the body of christ needed confirmation to those who proclaim faith in him that his words are the words and judgments that will prevail.

Hebrews 1 NIV
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3