Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[chessman]

Jesus calls the Father the one true God.

Where?

Actually what Jesus said was in a prayer to His Father:

John 17:1-4 (LEB)
Jesus Prays to be Glorified

17 Jesus said these things, and lifting up his [Jesus'] eyes to heaven he [Jesus] said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him [the Son] authority over all flesh, in order that he [the Son] would give eternal life to them —everyone whom you have given him [the Son]. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ [Messiah, God in Flesh], whom you have sent. I [Jesus] have glorified you [the Father] on earth by completing the work that you [the Father] have given me [Jesus] to do. And now, Father, you glorify me [Jesus] at your side with the glory that I [Jesus] had at your side before the world existed.

What Jesus says above is why John says:
1 John 5:20

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.
​

If you are in His Son Jesus Christ, you are in the one who is true. This one (His Son Jesus Christ) is the true God.

God did not make himself lower than Jesus or lower himself

Hebrews 2:9 But we see the One having been made lower than angels for a little while— Jesus— having been crowned with glory and honor because-of the suffering of the death, so-that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. ​

Jesus obeys the Fathers will.

Yep.

Have you ever read where the Father needs to obey anyone or received power and authority from any being?

No.

OR did the Father ever call anyone His God?

No.

Rv 22:1 has 2 conditions not 1 the throne of God AND the lamb

Rev 22 and Isaiah say One Throne and One person sitting on it.

the visions of God are just that visions of the God of Israel.

Yep. That's my point. The resurrected Jesus, is The Son of God and is God.

​

 

[Randy]

Where?

Actually what Jesus said was in a prayer to His Father:

John 17:1-4 (LEB)
Jesus Prays to be Glorified

17 Jesus said these things, and lifting up his [Jesus'] eyes to heaven he [Jesus] said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him [the Son] authority over all flesh, in order that he [the Son] would give eternal life to them —everyone whom you have given him [the Son]. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ [Messiah, God in Flesh], whom you have sent. I [Jesus] have glorified you [the Father] on earth by completing the work that you [the Father] have given me [Jesus] to do. And now, Father, you glorify me [Jesus] at your side with the glory that I [Jesus] had at your side before the world existed.

What Jesus says above is why John says:
1 John 5:20

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.
​

If you are in His Son Jesus Christ, you are in the one who is true. This one (His Son Jesus Christ) is the true God.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see the One having been made lower than angels for a little while— Jesus— having been crowned with glory and honor because-of the suffering of the death, so-that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. ​

Yep.


No.


No.


Rev 22 and Isaiah say One Throne and One person sitting on it.


Yep. That's my point. The resurrected Jesus, is The Son of God and is God.

​

MY point
Is Jesus God?
like this thread He never dies
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is
NO, He has always been the Son

 

[jaybird]

Angel's were worshiped at times, but they rebuked people for doing this. See Rev 19:10. Did Jesus ever rebuke anyone for worshiping Him?

why did these angels not rebuke lot?
Genesis 19:1
The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth
Lot bows down (worships) the angels IMO because he knows who sent them and who they represent. who sent Jesus and who did He represent?

 

[MarkT]

Just so there's no confusion, the doctrine of the Trinity posits that the Son is "eternally begotten." "Begotten" does not refer to the incarnation. As the Nicene Creed says, the Son was "begotten, not made." It was amended in 381 A.D. to say "begotten of the Father before all worlds."

How the Son can be "begotten" but not in any sense "made" or "created" is one of the mysteries of the Trinity. We simply don't know what "begotten" means in this context.

The Holy Spirit, of course, was not begotten but "proceeds" from the Father (or perhaps from the Father and the Son, which is the "filoque" dispute that caused the Great Schism between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church). What "proceeds" means in this context we likewise don't know.

The non-Trinitarian position, as I understand it, is that the Son was "begotten" before all the rest of creation (including the heavenly creation), has been with the Father since that act of "begetting," and never dies - but that the Son actually was "begotten" by the Father as an act of creation and has the status of a true Son, not the status of the Second Person of the Trinity.

Begotten means he was born. Those who are born of God are descendants of God ie. sons. Jesus was the only begotten Son in that he was born of God and man, the Son of God and the Son of man, the first-born among many brethren. Rom. 8:29

 

[chessman]

Jesus takes the scroll from the One who sat on the throne. That would be the Father

How do you know the One seated on the throne was the Father? It doesn't say it's the Father here. Is it your assumption that the Father sits on the Throne of God in Revelation because you think only the Father is God?

Revelation 5:1-3Lexham English Bible (LEB)
The Scroll with Seven Seals and the Lamb
5 And I saw in the right hand of the one who is seated on the throne a scroll, written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a powerful angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it.
​

If not even one of the powerful angels in Heaven or on Earth or under the Earth was able to open the scroll, then I guess the Lamb is not an angel.

Again, Revelation and many other Texts tells us exactly who was seated on the Throne of God. No need to speculate:

Hebrews 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the originator and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. ​

Revelation 7:9-10 After these things I looked, and behold, a great crowd that no one was able to number, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes and with palm branches in their hands. And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

Revelation 11:15, 17 And the seventh angel blew the trumpet, and there was a loud voice in heaven saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever.” saying, “We give thanks to you, Lord God All-Powerful, the one who is and the one who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.

Revelation 14:1-3 And I looked, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. ​

If you want God's name on your forehead you better include Jesus.

Lot bows down (worships) the angels IMO

Where does it say Lot "worships" them? It doesn't. He's simply greeting them at the city gate with a traditional middle-eastern greeting, not a bowing of the knee in God worship. Not to mention arguing with them for the rest of the night and not following their directions.

Psalm 95:6 Come in, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Yahweh, our maker. ​

Now that's worshipping God. If the Text meant Lot worshipped angels it would have said so. Just like Revelation says exactly who was seated on the Throne of God (the Lamb).

Genesis 23:7 And Abraham rose up and bowed to the people of the land, to the Hittites.

Genesis 42:6 Now Joseph was the governor over the land. He was the one who sold food to all the people of the land. And the brothers of Joseph came and bowed down to him with their faces to the ground. ​

Was Abraham 'worshipping' them here??? No. Did Joseph's brothers 'worship' him as God??? No.

 

[MarkT]

Abraham begot Issac on a certain day (I don't know, maybe someone could even figure out what day this occurred). Abraham's living flesh (sperm) entered Sarah's living flesh (egg). Both of which had the Spirit of God in their flesh.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (God) begot the Messiah (Christ) on a certain day. That day was the day David received the word of God in Psalm 2, not the day Mary birthed Jesus (as is commonly assumed from reading one verse in Heb, yet not realizing Paul was quoting a portion of Psalm 2. Nor continuing to read Heb or all of Psalm 2.).

Hebrews 5:5 Thus also Christ did not glorify himself to become high priest, but the one who said to him,

“You are my Son, today I have begotten you,” (Psalm 2:7b)
​

Hebrews 5:6 just as also in another place he says,

“You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,” (Psalm 110:4)​

Hebrews (Paul) is telling Jews of his day (and us reading today) that the Son had no beginning (or end) by referring to the begotten Messiah as being priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Christ didn't "become" High Priest, he's always been High Priest forever (past and future) because He is Messiah, begotten of God, not man's sperm.

There simply is no way around the Son of God, being God and thus eternal according to the Text.

Psalm 2:7 I will tell the decree; Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you.
​

It could not be more clear. Messiah is God and begotten on the day of God's decree to David. Messiah was fulfilled in Mary, but begotten centuries prior.

Psalm 110:1-4 A declaration of Yahweh to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” Yahweh will send out your mighty scepter from Zion; rule in the midst of your enemies. Your people will volunteer in the day of your power. In holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn, you will have the dew of your youth. Yahweh has sworn and he will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever according to the manner of Melchizedek.” ​

God spoke to the Son (David's Lord) here, in v1, and they begot Messiah together and announced it to David. Hebrews is a great explanation of the Trinty to Jews.

The Bible speaks of the sons of God and therefore the Father. David, inspired by the Spirit, said, "I will tell of the decree of the LORD. God decreed it. But we know God's word comes before it happens. He decrees it, then it happens. So I believe it came to pass when Jesus was born.
Luke 1:35
And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

 

[jaybird]

Where does it say Lot "worships" them? It doesn't. He's simoly greeting them at the city gate with a traditional middle-eastern greeting , not a bowing of the knee in God worship. Not to mention arguing with them for the rest of the night and not following their directions.

Genesis 19:1
The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth
Psalm 95:6 Come in, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Yahweh, our maker.


7812. shachah
Strong's Concordance
shachah: to bow down
Original Word: שָׁחָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shachah
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-khaw')
Short Definition: worship

same word used for worship in both passages.

Genesis 23:7 And Abraham rose up and bowed to the people of the land, to the Hittites.

Genesis 42:6 Now Joseph was the governor over the land. He was the one who sold food to all the people of the land. And the brothers of Joseph came and bowed down to him with their faces to the ground.

Was Abraham 'worshipping' them here??? No. Did Joseph's brothers 'worship' him as God??? No.

i know Abraham and Joseph didnt worhip here thinking the people or brother was the Most High, common sense tells us this. yet when we go to the NT you guys take the same scenario and apply a different interpretation to fit the doctrine. just because the word for worship appears does not always mean someone is being worshiped as the Most High. and that has been my point all along.

 

[Randy]

How do you know the One seated on the throne was the Father? It doesn't say it's the Father here. Is it your assumption that the Father sits on the Throne of God in Revelation because you think only the Father is God?

Revelation 5:1-3Lexham English Bible (LEB)
The Scroll with Seven Seals and the Lamb
5 And I saw in the right hand of the one who is seated on the throne a scroll, written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a powerful angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it.
​

I

I don't know of any other Gods. Jesus was handed the scroll by the one on the throne. Its an assumption that God the Father sits on the throne of God? Seriously? Since Jesus was handed the scroll then He wasn't sitting on the throne who else is there that is worthy to sit on the throne of God but God Himself. YOU are correct I believe the Father is the one true God and all things come from Him including His Son Jesus.

 

[chessman]

So I believe it came to pass when Jesus was born.

Okay. I believe Jesus was born on the day Jesus was born too.

Psalm 2:7 I will tell the decree; Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you.
​

I believe the Son was begotten the day Yahweh spoke.

​

 

[chessman]

same word used for worship in both passages.

The same word is used in different sentences. Some sentences using it are about worshipping. Some sentences using it are about greeting. Sometimes when the person(s) is worshipping they "bow the knee" and sometimes when the person is greeting they are "bowing the face". Are you worshipping a pastor when you nod your head in agreement with something he said???

The word itself does not mean worship. If the word meant worship then why does David say worship AND bow down?

Psalm 95:6 Come in, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Yahweh, our maker

People (ignorantly) made a big deal of Obama bowing his head before the Saudi King. (Past presidents do the same thing) Silly, he was simply greeting the man with respect (not worshipping him). As westerners do by shaking hands. And some cultures do by a kiss on the check. Or dogs do by ... (nevermind)

If you want to build a case for the Son being an angel, then use a scripture that says the Son was once an angel. But the fact that angels in the form of men were greeted by Lot at the gate of the city with the traditional greeting of the culture (and that culture wanted to greet them 'more') is not evidence of it. It's simply like shaking hands in the west.

 

[chessman]

I don't know of any other Gods.

Me either. Nor does the Trinity.

Jesus was handed the scroll by the one on the throne.

Read it again. The Lamb was NOT handed the scroll. He "took" it, the Lamb was not handed it, and the Lamb was the ONLY one able to. Not even the powerful angels were able to!

Revelation 5:1, 6-9 And I saw in the right hand of the one who is seated on the throne a scroll, written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as though slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. And he came and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one of whom had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they were singing a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and bought people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation,​

It's a vision of God becoming the Lamb (Messiah) not an angel becoming a Lamb.

Its an assumption that God the Father sits on the throne of God? Seriously?

It's an assumption that Isaiah saw the Father versus seeing the Son. Furthermore, John (through the Holy Spirit) specifically says Isaiah saw the Son. I'm with John and the Holy Spirit on this.

John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—this one has seen the Father.​

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is from God?
Do you believe the Son is from God?
Do you believe Isaiah saw the Father?

Since Jesus was handed the scroll ...

Since the Text doesn't say Jesus was 'handed' the scroll (but rather the Lamb "took the scroll" and was slaughtered ...) where does that leave your case???

YOU are correct I believe the Father is the one true God and all things come from Him including His Son Jesus.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit comes from God?

 

[GodsGrace]

That statement in number 4 is a quote from the New Catholic Encyclopedia. Yes, three persons in one God would probably be closer to my understanding. As opposed to charts, formulations, creeds, etc., I've always thought of the Trinity more as an attempt to express in human language a mystery that cannot be expressed in human language. It "suggests" the mysterious nature of God without "describing" it. As the Tao Te Ching puts it, "The name that can be named is not the eternal name." "The Trinity" is a label we attach to something we cannot fully understand.

Agreed.
Charts and other ideas could help.
But, you're right, it cannot be really understood.

I was offline for a few days and see that I've missed a lot.
Will go through now.

As we all must know, the Trinity had to be created and insisted upon by the early church because there were so many heresies concerning Jesus, the most important one was Arianism which stated that Jesus was just a man.

Reading...

 

[GodsGrace]

That statement in number 4 is a quote from the New Catholic Encyclopedia. Yes, three persons in one God would probably be closer to my understanding. As opposed to charts, formulations, creeds, etc., I've always thought of the Trinity more as an attempt to express in human language a mystery that cannot be expressed in human language. It "suggests" the mysterious nature of God without "describing" it. As the Tao Te Ching puts it, "The name that can be named is not the eternal name." "The Trinity" is a label we attach to something we cannot fully understand.

Tao Te Ching...
Yes.
If we understand it,
It's not God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well Jesus didn't say it so that settles it for me.

There's no equal or coequal with God; God has no equal.

The truth is the Son inherited all power and authority because he was the heir, Mt. 21:38, Luke 20:14, not because he was God. If that were not so, how could we even hope to be fellow heirs with Christ and inherit eternal?
Romans 8:17
and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Hi Mark,
Jesus did say it, didn't He?
Mathew 28:19
He stated 3 distinct persons:
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
What else could He possibly have meant? Do you have any ideas?
Greater minds than ours have, sort of, figured this out and have done their best.

If Jesus is not God, are we not breaking the 1st commandment?

As to His being equal:
Who said He is?

There is an easy way to "understand" the Trinity:

3 elements are necessary to understand it:
NATURE
ATTRIBUTES
ORDER

The nature of all 3 persons is the same.
We have a human nature.
Dogs have a dog nature.
We could be skinney or fat or pretty or ugly, but we're all HUMAN.
God has a DIVINE NATURE. All 3 persons of the trinity share in this divine nature. They're different, but they all have the same nature.

Their attributes are different.
They are all God but they are not all the same.
God Father decided to create.
God Son created. He is the breath, the Word, the reason of God Father. He is the Savior and the light of men.
God Spirit is the comforter, the paraclete, the convictor.

Their order is defined as:
Father is the holder of all three.
He is the great spirit (sounds Indian!)
The Almighty, El, the God all men believe in.

Son comes from Father. He is begotten, NOT MADE.
He was always a part of the father, but separate.
The sun is a hot ball of gases. The "flashes" come from the ball, but were always a part of it. Though now they are "separate".
A bulb lets out light. The stream of light is separate, but it was, and still is, part of the bulb, but "separate.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
It is the love that is shared by the Father and Son. Their love has become a person. (sorry, this is the least understood by me).
source of info: David Bercou, scott Publishing
What the Early Christians Believed About the Trinity.

So, you see, the early Christians, whom I trust, understood that Jesus IS GOD, but is SECOND to the Father.
Equal in nature, but not equal in attributes or order.

 

[GodsGrace]

Begotten means he was born. Those who are born of God are descendants of God ie. sons. Jesus was the only begotten Son in that he was born of God and man, the Son of God and the Son of man, the first-born among many brethren. Rom. 8:29

Begotten DOES NOT mean BORN.

It means UNIQUE.
Jesus is unique.
He cannot be born because He existed from before the beginning.

John 1:1
The WORD was WITH God.

 

[Randy]

Me either. Nor does the Trinity.


Read it again. The Lamb was NOT handed the scroll. He "took" it, the Lamb was not handed it, and the Lamb was the ONLY one able to. Not even the powerful angels were able to!

Revelation 5:1, 6-9 And I saw in the right hand of the one who is seated on the throne a scroll, written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as though slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. And he came and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who was seated on the throne. And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one of whom had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they were singing a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and bought people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation,​

It's a vision of God becoming the Lamb (Messiah) not an angel becoming a Lamb.


It's an assumption that Isaiah saw the Father versus seeing the Son. Furthermore, John (through the Holy Spirit) specifically says Isaiah saw the Son. I'm with John and the Holy Spirit on this.

John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—this one has seen the Father.​

Do you believe the Holy Spirit is from God?
Do you believe the Son is from God?
Do you believe Isaiah saw the Father?

Since the Text doesn't say Jesus was 'handed' the scroll (but rather the Lamb "took the scroll" and was slaughtered ...) where does that leave your case???


Do you believe the Holy Spirit comes from God?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.
Jesus was sent by the Father HE received authority from the Father. HE abides within the framework of the Fathers will.
Yes, I believe Isaiah saw a vision of the Father. (God)I believe the Father is the God of Israel and the God of Jesus.
I don't believe Jesus was ever an angel of God. The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. That makes Jesus ALL that the Father is. GOD in that context.
Hand to hand transfer of a scroll. Jesus took it rather than it was handed to Him.I can't believe we are discussing this difference. Note does it make a case for the trinity.

 

[Randy]

Begotten DOES NOT mean BORN.

It means UNIQUE.
Jesus is unique.
He cannot be born because He existed from before the beginning.

John 1:1
The WORD was WITH God.

He was with the Father at the beginning of the creation. What does Begotten but not made mean? Begotten before the worlds. I would state the Father formed The Spirit of Jesus first and was pleased in HIs firstborn that all HIS fullness should dwell. AND that which GOD created He created through Jesus.
Jesus is the one and only at the Fathers side.

 

[GodsGrace]

He was with the Father at the beginning of the creation. What does Begotten but not made mean? Begotten before the worlds. I would state the Father formed The Spirit of Jesus first and was pleased in HIs firstborn that all HIS fullness should dwell. AND that which GOD created He created through Jesus.
Jesus is the one and only at the Fathers side.

NO!
God did not CREATE Jesus.
Please read my post no. 434.

This is what traditional Christianity teaches.
Anything other than this, is NOT traditional Christianity.

 

[chessman]

We can 'know' certain things about God and therefore attempt to put these 'things' together in one doctrine. But it's not as easy as you might think because certain 'things' are stated in certain contexts and for certain reasons that do not necessarily fit into other contexts. Unitarians simply take a single statement about God (some of which are not even accurate statements to begin with) and run with it in all contexts. Unyielding to the bigger, more comprehensive truth.

For example:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of humankind, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? And has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?​

"God is not man". See, it says right there "God is not a man". Therefore (on the view of some) Jesus is not God. Unyielding to the plain fact that God did become a man (named Jesus in English) in order to save humankind through Himself (through the Lamb of God). (I cheated and read the last page first).

 

[chessman]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.

Why not support your views with actual Scripture??? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God:

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him.

Ephesians 2:13, 17-18 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. .. And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
​

There is One God.
There is one Father, one Son, one Holy Spirit.
You have no access to God unless you have the Spirit of Christ.