Does Colossians 2:16 abolish the Fourth Commandment?

[Gary K]

Scripture please.

You are blaming your hands and feet for your mind's initiated sins.

Paul wasn't talking about the skin and bones, but about the worldly oriented mind.

We must be careful to delineate between skin/bones and the worldly oriented mind, when we read the word "flesh".

Where does it clearly make that claim ?

You don't give enough credit to the effects of rebirth from God's perfect seed.
The old had passed away and all things are made new, according to 2 Cor 5:17.

Romans 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 11: 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
1Corinthians 15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
2Corinthians 4: 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Corithians 7: 1 HAVING therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galatians 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.:
Galatians 5: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5: 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 6: 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ephesians 2: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Is this enough? There's still more.

 

[hawkman]

We inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. That means we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. There is no way we can change that.

So this means Jesus had a sin nature . DNA you say . Who put that sin nature in your DNA ?

 

[Gary K]

So this means Jesus had a sin nature . DNA you say . Who put that sin nature in your DNA ?

No. He is not like us. He didn't have an earthly Father. Paul tells us He was tempted in all points as we are. But have you ever been tempted to turn stones into bread like He was in the wilderness? So how was He tempted like we are? To do things on His own. Remember He is fully God and fully man. He lived His sinless life here by faith in the power of His Father. He said He only did what His Father told Him to do.

I don't know exactly how it happened but Paul makes it abundantly clear that this is what happened. There are things we will not cannot know until heaven.

 

[hawkman]

No. He is not like us. He didn't have an earthly Father.

But He is "seed of a woman" , again you said DNA . The seed of a woman is important .

 

[Hopeful 2]

Romans 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 7: 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 11: 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
1Corinthians 15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
2Corinthians 4: 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Corithians 7: 1 HAVING therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galatians 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.:
Galatians 5: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5: 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 6: 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ephesians 2: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Is this enough? There's still more.

The "flesh", in all those verses is the mind set on earthly things.
It in no way refers to skin and bones...which have no power at all.
Or do you suspect your arms and legs have minds of their own ?

 

[Gary K]

But He is "seed of a woman" , again you said DNA . The seed of a woman is important .

So? Of course it is, but Jesus is also fully God. That makes Him different than you and I and the rest of humanity. Have you ever been tempted to turn stones into bread into stones when hungry or has the devil ever offered you ruler ship of this world? If not then it ought to show you how much difference there is between you and I and Jesus.

I don't understand why this is so controversial for you. Why is it?

Romans 5: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The text says "likeness of" not "in" sinful flesh. That's a big difference in meaning.

 

[Gary K]

The "flesh", in all those verses is the mind set on earthly things.
It in no way refers to skin and bones...which have no power at all.
Or do you suspect your arms and legs have minds of their own ?

How do you come to that conclusion? The very last text I quoted answers all your objections.

Ephesians 2: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[Gary K]

The "flesh", in all those verses is the mind set on earthly things.
It in no way refers to skin and bones...which have no power at all.
Or do you suspect your arms and legs have minds of their own ?

Here is more to demonstrate that you are incorrect in your assumptions.

1Corinthians 3: 1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

The word carnal here is translated from a Greek word meaning:

[*StrongsGreek*]
04559
σαρκικός sarkikós, sar-kee-kos'
from 4561;
pertaining to flesh, i.e. (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate:--carnal, fleshly.

 

[Hopeful 2]

How do you come to that conclusion? The very last text I quoted answers all your objections.

Because none of them specifically state "skin and bones".
Look at Paul's claim in Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
As he is still writing and speaking with hand and tongue, it is clear he still possesses skin and bones.
What we "WERE" in, and delivered from, was the earthly oriented mind.
Eph 2:3 corroborates that.
WERE in the "flesh", but now in the Spirit !

Ephesians 2: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

"WERE" by nature; insinuating a past time.
But no longer.

It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
We can't blame the skin and bones for sin.
That which was earthy is gone !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Here is more to demonstrate that you are incorrect in your assumptions.

1Corinthians 3: 1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

The word carnal here is translated from a Greek word meaning:

[*StrongsGreek*]
04559
σαρκικός sarkikós, sar-kee-kos'
from 4561;
pertaining to flesh, i.e. (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate:--carnal, fleshly.

Don't you see that Paul's words deride those supposed Christians ?
He can't talk to them as Spiritual, because they are still following the corrupt mind of the unrepentant.
UNREGENERATED.
Paul juxtaposes carnal against Spiritual.
They are as far apart from one another as East from West !

 

[Gary K]

Because none of them specifically state "skin and bones".
Look at Paul's claim in Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
As he is still writing and speaking with hand and tongue, it is clear he still possesses skin and bones.
What we "WERE" in, and delivered from, was the earthly oriented mind.
Eph 2:3 corroborates that.
WERE in the "flesh", but now in the Spirit !

"WERE" by nature; insinuating a past time.
But no longer.

It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
We can't blame the skin and bones for sin.
That which was earthy is gone !

Really? You're never tempted to do what you know is wrong. You never look at a woman with lust in your heart or are tempted to lie to someone. or get angry and let the sun go down on your wrath?

I've just been thinking about the first time I heard Jesus wasn't born with a sinful nature. I thought it was the rankest heresy I'd ever heard. It was said by a guy I went to high school with in the Sabbath school class he taught. I was determined to prove him wrong. It took me 30+ years and I ended up proving myself wrong. It was an earthshaking to have something like the nature of Christ shift under my feet. It caused me to have to rethink my entire entire structure of beliefs so I know how you feel about now.

 

[Gary K]

Don't you see that Paul's words deride those supposed Christians ?
He can't talk to them as Spiritual, because they are still following the corrupt mind of the unrepentant.
UNREGENERATED.
Paul juxtaposes carnal against Spiritual.
They are as far apart from one another as East from West !

Do you remember what was going on in the Corinthian church at the time? Sexual sins were rife in the church and there were divisions among the members and heresies were floating around the church. That isn't to be rebuked? They were also taking each other to pagan courts for defrauding one another. They were carnally minded.

 

[hawkman]

I don't understand why this is so controversial for you. Why is it?

There is no "sin nature " . Man's doctrine .

 

[Gary K]

There is no "sin nature " . Man's doctrine .

 

[Gary K]

There is no "sin nature " . Man's doctrine .

Whose? Paul's? He taught something that isn't scriptural? I've demonstrated it from his writings. An inspired apostle that wrote most of the NT taught something that is anti God and a lie? How can that be? Why did God allow Paul's writings to be in the canon? Why do Christians quote him endlessly?

Have any answers to my questions? Hopeful 2 has quoted him a lot.

 

[hawkman]

Whose? Paul's? He taught something that isn't scriptural? I've demonstrated it from his writings. An inspired apostle that wrote most of the NT taught something that is anti God and a lie? How can that be? Why did God allow Paul's writings to be in the canon? Why do Christians quote him endlessly?

Have any answers to my questions? Hopeful 2 has quoted him a lot.

My question first , please . I already asked you , post #62 .

Who put that sin nature in your DNA ?

 

[Gary K]

My question first , please . I already asked you , post #62 .

I answered that. I don't know who did it or how it happened. Do you understand all there is to know about the devil, sin, and God? I certainly don't. I just accept by faith what has been revealed to us.

 

[hawkman]

I answered that. I don't know who did it or how it happened.

I was hoping to locate this elusive " sin nature " and find out how it got attached to humans .

Do you understand all there is to know about the devil, sin, and God?

I understand we don't need a "sin nature " to sin . We are humans living in a fallen world full of sinners , is that not enough ?

I welcome you to explore the possibility there is no "sin nature " .

Author: Jesus didn’t believe in ‘original sin’ and neither should we

 

[Gary K]

I was hoping to locate this elusive " sin nature " and find out how it got attached to humans .

I understand we don't need a "sin nature " to sin . We are humans living in a fallen world full of sinners , is that not enough ?

I welcome you to explore the possibility there is no "sin nature " .

Author: Jesus didn’t believe in ‘original sin’ and neither should we

So you believe in a tradition of the church.

How about what both the OT and the NT say?

Genesis 4: 1 AND Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 ¶ And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?

How did the person born on this earth become a murderer and attempt to excuse himself in front of God? Did he inherit a sinful nature from his parents?

Genesis 8: 5 ¶ And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Deuteronomy 30: 6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Here is the promise made to the Israelites just above referred to by Paul as applicable to the Gentiles.

Colossians 2: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

I see nothing refuting a sinful nature in either the OT or the NT. You're welcome to believe what you like but I will never accept man's reasoning that it is "unhelpful" as acceptable. The only source I accept is scripture.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Really? You're never tempted to do what you know is wrong. You never look at a woman with lust in your heart or are tempted to lie to someone. or get angry and let the sun go down on your wrath?

I am tempted all the time.
But I beleive James 4:7, and resist the devil.
I have even made up mind-games to play while the temptations fade away.
The A-Z game involves trying to remember a bible name starting from A and continuing alphabetically to Z.
Or a fish breed, or a dog breed, or a flower, or the name of a nation, or an American city...etc.

I've just been thinking about the first time I heard Jesus wasn't born with a sinful nature. I thought it was the rankest heresy I'd ever heard. It was said by a guy I went to high school with in the Sabbath school class he taught. I was determined to prove him wrong. It took me 30+ years and I ended up proving myself wrong. It was an earthshaking to have something like the nature of Christ shift under my feet. It caused me to have to rethink my entire entire structure of beliefs so I know how you feel about now.

Folks put too much importance on the words "sin nature"
What does it even mean ?
Can sin ?
Wants to sin ?
Gets tempted to sin ?
Just call it human nature.
Jesus showed us we can triumph over a nature by having never succumbed to it.
The repentant can overcome it too.
Thanks be to God !