Does Colossians 2:16 abolish the Fourth Commandment?

[Gary K]

There was no Christ until Christ was born of a woman.

They were written on tablets of stone.

Thanks be to God, we can be dead with Jesus and free from the Law.
All the Law and the prophets are summarized with..."Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind...and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

If we are subject to circumcision, (what Paul was actually confronted with), we are also subject to sabbath day observances and every other precept that has been deemed ineffective at producing salvation.
But we are subject to none of it.

I will treat every day as the Lord's day.

So it's as if I said nothing at all. Oh well. God gives you the right to choose what you want to believe.

 

[Gary K]

There was no Christ until Christ was born of a woman.

They were written on tablets of stone.

Thanks be to God, we can be dead with Jesus and free from the Law.
All the Law and the prophets are summarized with..."Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind...and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

If we are subject to circumcision, (what Paul was actually confronted with), we are also subject to sabbath day observances and every other precept that has been deemed ineffective at producing salvation.
But we are subject to none of it.

I will treat every day as the Lord's day.

You're welcome to your beliefs, but God also gives us the freedom to reject Him too. I don't think it's a safe practice to make one passage of scripture conflict with another. In my eyes the only safe way to understand scripture if we see conflicts is study until we understand how to harmonize all scripture.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So it's as if I said nothing at all. Oh well. God gives you the right to choose what you want to believe.

Thank God for that, or I would be preaching sabbath keeping, dietary rules, feast keeping, and circumcision.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You're welcome to your beliefs, but God also gives us the freedom to reject Him too. I don't think it's a safe practice to make one passage of scripture conflict with another. In my eyes the only safe way to understand scripture if we see conflicts is study until we understand how to harmonize all scripture.

I see no conflict.
Did you supply the verse(s) that conflict with Col 2:16-17 ?

 

[Gary K]

I see no conflict.
Did you supply the verse(s) that conflict with Col 2:16-17 ?

Are you sure you want to go this deep into a Bible study in this thread in this forum format? We will go very deep into scripture, both OT and NT. At the very least it deserves its own thread because we are going to study the Jewish feasts and there are several of them.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Are you sure you want to go this deep into a Bible study in this thread in this forum format? We will go very deep into scripture, both OT and NT. At the very least it deserves its own thread because we are going to study the Jewish feasts and there are several of them.

As one of those Paul said was dead to the Law in Rom 7:4, I have no interest in anything that subtracts from the freedom I have in Christ Jesus.
It is written..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;..." (1 Tim 1:9-10)
If any of those things pertain to you, the Law does apply to you.
None of those things apply to those whose repentance from sin is true.

 

[Gary K]

As one of those Paul said was dead to the Law in Rom 7:4, I have no interest in anything that subtracts from the freedom I have in Christ Jesus.
It is written..."Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;..." (1 Tim 1:9-10)
If any of those things pertain to you, the Law does apply to you.
None of those things apply to those whose repentance from sin is true.

In other words you aren't interested in learning more about scripture. You;re satisfied with what you know.

I don;t know I would be comfortable with that attitude.

Jeremiah 29: 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

 

[Hopeful 2]

In other words you aren't interested in learning more about scripture. You;re satisfied with what you know.

I am not interested in knowing every ludicrous POV regarding the truth and its effects on men.
I showed the verses that free men from OT observances, and am not willing to see men try to refute what God has had written.

I don;t know I would be comfortable with that attitude.

My comfort is of Christ, and not of man or knowledge.

Jeremiah 29: 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

Certainly pertinent to the OT Jews.

 

[Gary K]

I am not interested in knowing every ludicrous POV regarding the truth and its effects on men.
I showed the verses that free men from OT observances, and am not willing to see men try to refute what God has had written.

My comfort is of Christ, and not of man or knowledge.

Certainly pertinent to the OT Jews.

So you think the effects of scripture on people are ludicrous? God didn't inspire the OT as well as the NT?

In other words what I see you saying is God treats people differently depending on when they were born in the stream of history. How is that just?

Acts 10: 32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

It also means you think Peter was a liar and the following texts are a lie.

Hebrews 13: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3: 6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So you think the effects of scripture on people are ludicrous? God didn't inspire the OT as well as the NT?

I find your rejection of the verses I supplied as ludicrous.
You honor the "shadows", but I will honor that which cast the shadow.

In other words what I see you saying is God treats people differently depending on when they were born in the stream of history. How is that just?

It is just, as God ordained it
Different ordinances for different times.
Do you feel that circumcision is still necessary for salvation ?
I don't.

Acts 10: 32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

Isn't it interesting that Peter didn't cite at last one of the OT Laws you promote ?
Just "righteousness".

It also means you think Peter was a liar and the following texts are a lie.

I feel that anyone seeking to be righteous by doing what the OT Jews couldn't do, is wasting their time.

Hebrews 13: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Amen to that.
It says nothing about the Law, however.
It was a "shadow" that has been fulfilled.

Malachi 3: 6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Did you need to get circumcised to be a Christian ?
Will you lose your eventual salvation if you miss the feasts of Israel ?
Just how much of the Law's dictates are necessary for salvation ?
It is written..."For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Gal 5:3-4)
You can substitute "sabbath keeping" for "circumcision", and get the same fallen condition.

 

[Gary K]

I find your rejection of the verses I supplied as ludicrous.
You honor the "shadows", but I will honor that which cast the shadow.

It is just, as God ordained it
Different ordinances for different times.
Do you feel that circumcision is still necessary for salvation ?
I don't.

Isn't it interesting that Peter didn't cite at last one of the OT Laws you promote ?
Just "righteousness".

I feel that anyone seeking to be righteous by doing what the OT Jews couldn't do, is wasting their time.

Amen to that.
It says nothing about the Law, however.
It was a "shadow" that has been fulfilled.

Did you need to get circumcised to be a Christian ?
Will you lose your eventual salvation if you miss the feasts of Israel ?
Just how much of the Law's dictates are necessary for salvation ?
It is written..."For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Gal 5:3-4)
You can substitute "sabbath keeping" for "circumcision", and get the same fallen condition.

Are these serious questions?

Why would I get circumcised? I'm not a Jew or an Israelite.

Nope, I won't lose my salvation over the feasts. I believe it was you I offered to do a deep dive on the feasts with. If we had you wouldn't think the way you do. The feasts and everything associated with them were all shadows of the Messiah to come. In other words they were prophetic in nature as they pointed to Jesus.

How much of the law is necessary for salvation? Let's let Paul answer that.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So does Paul say we need to keep the law to be saved? He goes on in the next few verses to show how this is possible.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Paul covers both descriptions of sin given in the Bible in these two verses. Whatsoever is not of faith and transgression of the law as the fruit of the spirit is faith and violates no law. This also agrees the new covenant as the law is now written in our hearts. If we think according to the law we will act accordingly as how we think controls how we act.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Are these serious questions?

Yes, they are.
If sabbath keeping is an imperative to salvation, why aren't circumcision and dietary rules ?

Why would I get circumcised? I'm not a Jew or an Israelite.

Why keep a sabbath if you are not an OT Jew ?

Nope, I won't lose my salvation over the feasts. I believe it was you I offered to do a deep dive on the feasts with. If we had you wouldn't think the way you do. The feasts and everything associated with them were all shadows of the Messiah to come. In other words they were prophetic in nature as they pointed to Jesus.

That would just be a derail from the importance, or unimportance, of sabbath keeping for salvation.

How much of the law is necessary for salvation? Let's let Paul answer that.
Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So does Paul say we need to keep the law to be saved? He goes on in the next few verses to show how this is possible.

No, he doesn't.
Those things are all things of the "flesh".
"Flesh" that has been crucified with Christ.
Nobody walking in the Spirit would ever do any of that list.
They are obeying the Spirit within them, and not a Law for the Israelites.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Paul covers both descriptions of sin given in the Bible in these two verses. Whatsoever is not of faith, and transgression of the law. as the fruit of the spirit is faith and violates no law. This also agrees the new covenant as the law is now written in our hearts. If we think according to the law we will act accordingly as how we think controls how we act.

If we think according to the Spirt of God within us, we can realize that righteousness is not of the Law.
Does sabbath keeping make anyone holy ?

 

[Gary K]

Yes, they are.
If sabbath keeping is an imperative to salvation, why aren't circumcision and dietary rules ?

Why keep a sabbath if you are not an OT Jew ?

That would just be a derail from the importance, or unimportance, of sabbath keeping for salvation.

No, he doesn't.
Those things are all things of the "flesh".
"Flesh" that has been crucified with Christ.
Nobody walking in the Spirit would ever do any of that list.
They are obeying the Spirit within them, and not a Law for the Israelites.

If we think according to the Spirt of God within us, we can realize that righteousness is not of the Law.
Does sabbath keeping make anyone holy ?

The Sabbath is written in stone as were the rest of the 10. The other two were not part of the ten.

I keep the Sabbath because the Bible instructs us to do so. Paul makes it pretty clear in his writings as to the difference between Jew and Gentile.

Romans 10: 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 2: 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10: 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Galatians 1: 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

So What does Paul say the difference is between Jew and Gentile? He says there is no difference. Zip. Nada. None. Zero.

The only difference is in the minds of those who have been taught there is by dishonest people.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Sabbath is written in stone as were the rest of the 10. The other two were not part of the ten.

I keep the Sabbath because the Bible instructs us to do so. Paul makes it pretty clear in his writings as to the difference between Jew and Gentile.

Romans 10: 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 2: 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10: 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Galatians 1: 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 3: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

So What does Paul say the difference is between Jew and Gentile? He says there is no difference. Zip. Nada. None. Zero.

The only difference is in the minds of those who have been taught there is by dishonest people.

I keep the sabbath too, but I do it everyday.
If I was only keeping one day a week holy, I would consider myself lost.

 

[Gary K]

I keep the sabbath too, but I do it everyday.
If I was only keeping one day a week holy, I would consider myself lost.

I worship God every day with my life. I pray many times a day. But Sabbath is the day He asks us to set aside for worshiping Him. I don't work, attend sporting events, read the news, etc.... I completely dedicate the Sabbath to God as He has requested.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I worship God every day with my life. I pray many times a day. But Sabbath is the day He asks us to set aside for worshiping Him. I don't work, attend sporting events, read the news, etc.... I completely dedicate the Sabbath to God as He has requested.

To me, every day is the Lord's day.
The pre-sage of complete dedication to God was fulfilled by Jesus.
Now that man can walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh" means every moment is the Lord's.
I live in the "rest from the world" that Jesus supplied with my new life in Him.

 

[Gary K]

To me, every day is the Lord's day.
The pre-sage of complete dedication to God was fulfilled by Jesus.
Now that man can walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh" means every moment is the Lord's.
I live in the "rest from the world" that Jesus supplied with my new life in Him.

Well, you are free to do what you want. God made you a free moral agent so you can choose. I just don't think it's a good idea to ignore God's instructions on how to live our lives. In the end it doesn't work out well.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Well, you are free to do what you want. God made you a free moral agent so you can choose. I just don't think it's a good idea to ignore God's instructions on how to live our lives. In the end it doesn't work out well.

I am indeed free to do as the Spirit commands.
That would be...love God with all my mind, soul, and heart.
Plus love my neighbor as I love myself.
As far as ignoring anything the Lord commands, where does Jesus command any certain day to worship Him ?
I will stick to worshipping Him, and His Father, everyday, instead of only once a week.

 

[Gary K]

I am indeed free to do as the Spirit commands.
That would be...love God with all my mind, soul, and heart.
Plus love my neighbor as I love myself.
As far as ignoring anything the Lord commands, where does Jesus command any certain day to worship Him ?
I will stick to worshipping Him, and His Father, everyday, instead of only once a week.

So loving God with everything within you means ignoring what He explicitly commanded you to do.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So loving God with everything within you means ignoring what He explicitly commanded you to do.

I am not ignoring it at all.
Not being a Jew, I am under no obligation to follow a Law which I am dead to.