Does Demon Possession get confused with the Concurrent Resurrection of the Spirit Body within the Physical?

[for_his_glory]

Terraphim

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, Rev 19:11-21, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (one resurrection, two different judgements)

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death (Those being Spiritually dead) being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[for_his_glory]

Terraphim

Enoch and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular timeIf you ever read the book of Enoch God translated him to many places, but never up to the third heaven. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second being Spiritual death/separation from God, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.

there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.

What some people do not know is that there are three heavens. The first heaven is the Atmosphere, the air surrounding the earth. Birds fly "in the heaven" - certainly not to God's throne. We read in Genesis l:2 of "foul that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." Jacob, when blessing Isaac, said: "God give you of the dew of heaven," and Moses was joyful that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (Gen.27:28; Deut.33:28). The dew comes from the first heaven - the atmosphere. The second heaven is the expanse of this awesome universe - where the stars, moon and planets are. The Psalmists often wrote about the "Heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon, and the stars, which you have ordained" (Ps.8:3; Gen.1:15-17). The third heaven is where the throne of God exists, where the heavenly temple is found and the heavenly Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles Chapter 21 - Jehoram, being the son of Jehoshaphat, was 32 when he began his reign in Israel. He married Ahab's daughter and was a wicked king who reigned for eight years. According to scripture Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind, 2 Kings 2:11-13. The heaven Elijah went up to was only the first heaven being the atmosphere as there are three heavens described in scripture as the throne of God is in the third heaven. A whirlwind can only happen within the atmosphere of the first heaven. During the reign of Jehoram he received a letter from Elijah, 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. How could he receive a letter from Elijah if he was with God in the third heaven? Elijah being caught up to heaven is the same as Phillip being caught up in the first heaven and carried thirty miles away, Acts 8:39, 40. The only difference is that when the fifty men searched for Elijah they could not find him as he was translated further than their search. Phillip was found within the thirty mile radius where he was translated to.

 

[Free]

Though I respect your methodology and position, yet I do not agree. Partial universalism is still a sort of universalism.

I haven't advocated for partial universalism. I simply stated that all will be resurrected but not all will be saved:

Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. (ESV)

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (ESV)

Act 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. (ESV)

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. (ESV)

Aside from the scripture which we have already debated, does it make sense for God to invest such vast resources to resurrect so many physical bodies, then place all the souls of all who have ever lived into them, then to levitate them into the upper atmosphere, where they physically cannot live. Your version probably differs from what I presented, but it is not likely to be very much different.

God created the universe by speaking, so is it really going to be any harder to resurrect everyone? We don't live on the clouds, that is the stuff of cartoons and fairy tales. The Bible is clear that heaven "comes to earth," or at least becomes revealed on earth. We live here, much as we do now, except in glorified physical bodies (1 Cor 15).

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. (ESV)

Jesus says he is going to prepare a place for us. Revelation 21 speaks of the new Jerusalem coming to earth. Of course, there is some discussion as to just what the new Jerusalem is, but the point is that we will likely be dwelling on earth.

Another example of a historical, though non-biblical figure who I believe experienced the concurrent resurrection is Francis of Asissi. Though the record is not substantial in this regard, it is clear that something extraordinary occurred while he was in prison, and thereafter. Francis was a merchant, and Clare and her sisters were nobles. As the world denied them their preference, they managed to found an order, and a sisterhood. Francis was a mendicant in a primitive agricultural society, the lay people of which did not always appreciate a rich man's son begging from them. Even less were the prospects of the cloistered and dependent Poor Clares. Yet, such was their love for God and for each other, that such vicious hardships, well beyond what most of us have known, were endured with thanksgiving.

This is evidence of regeneration and sanctification by the Spirit, yes, but in no way is this evidence of a "concurrent resurrection." There are many such examples throughout church history, but none are evidence of ongoing resurrections.

Scripture cannot be broken. Consider that. That is because God's love cannot be broken.

Yes, and Scripture not once states that resurrections have begun and have been ongoing. There is one resurrection in Scripture that all believers look forward to and that is when Christ returns. There is not even a hint that there are concurrent resurrections; that idea is foreign to Scripture. All talk of resurrection for believers is regarding the last day:

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (ESV)

 

[Terraphim]

Mat. 10:25 is Jesus referring to just one out of the laundry list of accusations against Him by the religious leaders their ulterior motive being to sully Him, taint Him, & turn the populace away from Him.

If your intent was to cite a scripture containing an instance of honest confusion where demonic possession is concerned then you picked a loser with the wolves going after the sheep in Mat.10:25

It is likely that the accusation against Jesus which He mentioned in Mat25:10 was not so much a result of confusion as it was a part of a malicious attack, yes. The title of the thread was long enough as it was, but I have also mentioned in my discussion the use of accusation of demon possession as a method of malicious attack. I was not concerned with the reasons behind this aspect of the attack on Jesus, but rather I was making the point that believers are still sometimes falsely accused of being demon possessed. Through an understanding of the concurrent resurrection, it may be that some of these cases will be properly understood and treated differently within the house of God, thereby providing some protection for vulnerable believers who would otherwise be substantially damaged.

What I brought to the table were the actual instances of demon possession in scripture.
Possession so clear that it made any need for accusations immaterial .

True, the instances in scripture were understood in that context as being obvious cases of demon possession, and we believe that they were so. I did not state that any such case in scripture was anything other than what was obviously presented.

It's interesting that you mentioned Mat25:10, as well as Mat10:25.
Of greater relevance to another post is a verse preceding Mat10:25:
Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Jesus did not mean that He was going to chase down His Apostles all across Israel. This is a reference to the coming of the Lord. It is obviously not the second coming, as His first coming had not yet concluded. It is therefore obvious that this is a reference to the Manifestation of the Lord to the twelve whom He had sent out. So, some scriptures about the general resurrection are usually understood to be in the context of the second coming, but the coming of the Lord has been ongoing throughout history as the spiritual Manifestation of Jesus. So, the general resurrection is concurrent, and it follows after the experience of the Holy Spirit, then the Father's Glory, and then the Son's Manifestation.

Having strayed from your immediate concerns, I will mention one final thing. Judas Iscariot was identified by Jesus:
John17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

A son of perdition is not a part of the general resurrection, because his soul is given over to death. Therefore, the resurrection of the unjust does not refer to the wicked, but rather to those who are unjust under the Law but are saved in Jesus Christ.

For those who are unjust to be saved, they must be forensically justified by imputed righteousness through the vicarious atonement of the blood of Jesus, the Christ. These then may become candidates for the resurrection of the unjust. So, we are unjust, but justified, and therefore saved, and may undergo the concurrent resurrection of the unjust justified believers.
Thank you. Be Blessed.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It is likely that the accusation against Jesus which He mentioned in Mat25:10 was not so much a result of confusion as it was a part of a malicious attack, yes. The ti I was not concerned with the reasons behind this aspect of the attack on Jesus, but rather I was making the point that believers are still sometimes falsely accused of being demon possessed.

This accusing believers of being demon possessed has to be something that happens a scale so miniscule as to barely even register .
I've never heard of it happening, and I've been around the block a few times.
Interesting to me however that inherent in such a scenario is the fact that anyone accusing a believer of being demon possessed would almost certainly be a believer themselves?
This would be a media dream story, as there is nothing they love more than when Christians eat their own.
Non-believers, while never shy about leveling various accusations against believers would never adopt what they consider to be spiritual weaponry in doing so.

So what you really mean here is believers attacking each other based on some demonstrated behavior I suppose ?
Have you actually ever seen this take place yourself, and if so could you give a detailed description ?

 

[Terraphim]

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death (Those being Spiritually dead) being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

Hi, thanks, it's all becoming rather a lot to deal with at this point. Wonderful effort, however.
So, this is more or less standard eschatology, as constructed under postponement theology.

A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time

Yes, very good.
The millennial reign, or 1000 year reign, is relevant to this discussion, though it is somewhat beside the point. The first resurrection refers to all who are resurrected before the end of the epoch which finishes with the 1000 years. This means that further resurrections periods come after, but the nature of the resurrection referred to does not change with the numbers. It is not literally 1000 years, but only roughly so. As I indicated earlier, the numbering of our days may also be given, but I am not going to focus on that now.

Enoch and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13.

You have taught the principle of the three heavens very well, thanks. That is a fairly wide-spread, and generally accepted perspective of Christian thought. Some people think that this idea replaces the older Jewish belief in seven heavens, which were represented by the seven classic wandering stars, which were the moon and the more easily visible planets. The seven heavens were represented by the older seven branched menorah, which also represents the seven days of creation. It seems to me that Christianity has neglected the heaven of heavens perspective, in regards to the third heaven. So, some prosaic distinction may be made, such as the tertiary heavens and the septum of heavens. That means that the third tertiary heaven is composed of a septum of heavens, according to the minimum.

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.

This is an interesting perspective, which I have not heard before. Comparing it to the Spirit-led wanderings of Philip is also clever. The timing of Elijah's translation is not definite, however. It occurred after two years into the eight year reign of Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat 2King1:17/ 2Chron21:5. Therefore, Elijah may certainly have still been in the world at the time that he sent his letter to Jehoram. It is true, of course, that the term "translation" is not used in scripture to refer to Elijah, but only to Enoch. Still, the similarity is evident, and God is consistent in His order.
Be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

I haven't advocated for partial universalism. I simply stated that all will be resurrected but not all will be saved

Please excuse me for an apparent attempt to label your belief.

God created the universe by speaking, so is it really going to be any harder to resurrect everyone?

Admittedly, God may do whatever He wills, except for being contradictory or innately evil.
Still, it's preferable to be able to understand what appears to be a sensible scenario; but then, I am in the world still, though not of it. Even so, as I consider scripture, I find little, if any reason to believe that everyone will be resurrected, regardless of the method. The scriptures which are used to support universal resurrection may better be understood otherwise. Even so, I value your person and perspective, and encourage your continued study of scripture.

There are many such examples throughout church history, but none are evidence of ongoing resurrections.

I suppose that it depends upon one's standards of evidence. From where I stand, the two examples that I gave from the historical record offer very substantial evidence, and are very valuable resources for anyone who wishes to gain some insight into what I know to be true.

Yes, and Scripture not once states that resurrections have begun and have been ongoing.

Meaning, it appears, that you have rejected my presentation of the clear statement by Jesus:
Luk 20:37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB.'
Luk 20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."
The key phrases here are; "are raised" and "of the living".

There is one resurrection in Scripture that all believers look forward to and that is when Christ returns. There is not even a hint that there are concurrent resurrections; that idea is foreign to Scripture.

Clearly not, as I have been consistently telling you otherwise, in some detail, with some aptitude. Therefore, what you appear to be saying here is that you are flatly denying what I am expositing. That's fine, as I respect your ability to so do. However, your denial does not establish the truth, and neither does human position, power, or majority.

All talk of resurrection for believers is regarding the last day:

The last day of what, and what is a day? I am not being arrogant or facetious, I am asking you think about it.
Alright, I will start with a few basics concerning the numbering of days, though I would prefer to wait so that I may focus on that topic. Even so, there is always doctrinal overlap, which is why the composite has integrity, like a puzzle that holds together as compared to a neophyte's mosaic.
Your postponement theology views it to be an ordinary 24 hour day which is the last day of the times of the Gentiles. My juxtaposition theology views it to be a heavenly Day which is a one thousand year period which is given for a soul or soul/spirit to ascend to the next higher heaven, failing which one must descend to the next lower heaven.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Yes, that does mean that reincarnation, or more properly transmigration, is involved. However, as the first few days are actually comparatively easy going, they are often overcome in a single lifetime. So, that is a Day; now, the last Day of what? The last Day of the regeneration.
Gen 6:9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
There are four Days in the regeneration. It's the generation of the Faithful, the Called, the Chosen, and the Accepted. These generations inhabit the first four heavens. The last Day of the regeneration is when the concurrent resurrection occurs. The Day before that is when the Manifestation occurs.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now I am tired. I may not have much time in the immediate future to continue to work on this thread. I am going to have to resort to making composite answers, rather than addressing each post. Thanks, and be blessed.

 

[Terraphim]

So what you really mean here is believers attacking each other based on some demonstrated behavior I suppose ?
Have you actually ever seen this take place yourself, and if so could you give a detailed description ?

Believers and unbelievers alike. It is always curious when unbelievers incongruously use Christian language.
Yes, I have personal experience of this particular circumstance, as my name indicates. I am giving a detailed description, but only in theological terms.

 

[hawkman]

Yes, confusion does occur in this area, which becomes problematic. This is essential reading.
This is a complex area of consideration which requires more than 1000 words, which is why I saved this file to Dropbox.
Demon Possession vs. Concurrent Resurrection; Ancient Antediluvian Annihilation, Sons of God/Nephilim, Noah's Arc.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Never seen it spelled that way before . Why not Noah's Ark ?

 

[Terraphim]

https://christianforums.net/members/free.19/

for_his_glory

christianforums.net

https://christianforums.net/members/consecrated-life.14726/

A few miscellaneous thoughts.
Psa 41:8 "An evil disease," they say, "clings to him. And now that he lies down, he will rise up no more."
As with Teresa of Avila, so it was thought of David.

As for the coming of the Glory of the Lord, which is the backside of the Father's countenance, I know of one contemporary account which is readily accessible. It is a book by Richard Bach, the author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I think it is called One, but it may be The Bridge Across Forever. I'm not going to dig into my library at this time to find out which one it is. I do not know or promote Richard Bach, and I do not use him as source material.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

Two points here.
1) Women received their dead spirit bodies raised to life again.
2) Some would not compromise their profession of faith for the purpose of being delivered from torture, prefering to hold fast to their profession so that they might obtain a better resurrection.
Concerning point 2: Given that these OT people knew that they were just by Law, and would be a part of the resurrection of the just, why would they wish to obtain a better resurrection?

A "better resurrection" refers to the living conditions of the one being resurrected. Being resurrected in prison, or a brothel, or a psychiatric ward, or starving in a cave, etc, are not preferable circumstances.
It behooves believers to work towards a better resurrection by promoting right doctrine, such that their future circumstances during their resurrection may be propitious and comfortable.
After a proper doctrinal perspective, that begins with the concerns of those who are in need.

 

[Terraphim]

Ha! You got me. So much for careful editing. Thanks.

 

[Terraphim]

New link for updated dropbox file download: spelling corrections.

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Free]

Even so, as I consider scripture, I find little, if any reason to believe that everyone will be resurrected, regardless of the method. The scriptures which are used to support universal resurrection may better be understood otherwise.

There really is every reason to believe that Scripture speaks only of a future resurrection, supported by all the texts I have provided, and all those regarding the resurrection that I haven't provided. I cannot see how there is a possibility to understand them otherwise.

I suppose that it depends upon one's standards of evidence. From where I stand, the two examples that I gave from the historical record offer very substantial evidence, and are very valuable resources for anyone who wishes to gain some insight into what I know to be true.

But, they say nothing regarding a resurrection. That is your subjective interpretation of events that I think even those whom the records are about would disagree. Do you have any evidence that they themselves viewed their experiences as a resurrection? As I pointed out, it is all simply evidence of regeneration and sanctification by the Spirit.

Meaning, it appears, that you have rejected my presentation of the clear statement by Jesus:
Luk 20:37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB.'
Luk 20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."
The key phrases here are; "are raised" and "of the living".

The Sadducees rejected any idea of a resurrection. Jesus was correcting them by pointing out the dead are raised, that there will be a resurrection. That Jesus's response is present tense, if that is what you believe supports your assertion, is likely to keep consistent with the present tense in verse 27--"those who deny there is a resurrection." More than that, the context proves that they are speaking of a future resurrection:

Luk 20:33 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.”
Luk 20:34 And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
Luk 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, (ESV)

If the account was about an ongoing resurrection, then the Sadducees' question makes no sense. It is very clearly about the future resurrection at the end of all things, which the Pharisees believed. It's all quite consistent.

That God is the God of the living has nothing to do with an ongoing resurrection; it has everything to do with the souls of physically dead believers being alive with God until the resurrection at Jesus's return. Making a doctrine out of one or two verses is simply not the way to go about things, especially when quite a number of other passages clearly state there will be a future resurrection.

Clearly not, as I have been consistently telling you otherwise, in some detail, with some aptitude. Therefore, what you appear to be saying here is that you are flatly denying what I am expositing. That's fine, as I respect your ability to so do. However, your denial does not establish the truth, and neither does human position, power, or majority.

And, yet, I have not seen one objective bit of evidence to support the idea of concurrent resurrections. So far it is all very subjective and based on poor exegesis.

The last day of what, and what is a day? I am not being arrogant or facetious, I am asking you think about it.
Alright, I will start with a few basics concerning the numbering of days, though I would prefer to wait so that I may focus on that topic. Even so, there is always doctrinal overlap, which is why the composite has integrity, like a puzzle that holds together as compared to a neophyte's mosaic.
Your postponement theology views it to be an ordinary 24 hour day which is the last day of the times of the Gentiles. My juxtaposition theology views it to be a heavenly Day which is a one thousand year period which is given for a soul or soul/spirit to ascend to the next higher heaven, failing which one must descend to the next lower heaven.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Yes, that does mean that reincarnation, or more properly transmigration, is involved. However, as the first few days are actually comparatively easy going, they are often overcome in a single lifetime. So, that is a Day; now, the last Day of what? The last Day of the regeneration.
Gen 6:9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
There are four Days in the regeneration. It's the generation of the Faithful, the Called, the Chosen, and the Accepted. These generations inhabit the first four heavens. The last Day of the regeneration is when the concurrent resurrection occurs. The Day before that is when the Manifestation occurs.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now I am tired. I may not have much time in the immediate future to continue to work on this thread. I am going to have to resort to making composite answers, rather than addressing each post. Thanks, and be blessed.

Notice that 2Pe 3:8 is not stating that one day is a thousand years and a thousand years is one day. It's a similie, a figure of speech.

With all due respect, there is very little Christian theology in the above quote. You seem to be mixing some sort of New Age beliefs in with your beliefs of Christianity, with the former interpreting the latter. That is to your peril. Reincarnation and transmigration have absolutely no place in Christianity.

When Christ returns, that is the day I am talking about:

Mar 13:32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
...
Mar 13:35 Therefore stay awake—for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—
Mar 13:36 lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
Mar 13:37 And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake.” (ESV)

Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
Act 1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (ESV)

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
...
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (ESV)

1Th 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (ESV)

There will be a moment in time, a specific day, when Christ returns and all the dead will be raised.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi, thanks, it's all becoming rather a lot to deal with at this point. Wonderful effort, however.
So, this is more or less standard eschatology, as constructed under postponement theology.

What is postponement theology?

The millennial reign, or 1000 year reign, is relevant to this discussion, though it is somewhat beside the point. The first resurrection refers to all who are resurrected before the end of the epoch which finishes with the 1000 years. This means that further resurrections periods come after, but the nature of the resurrection referred to does not change with the numbers. It is not literally 1000 years, but only roughly so. As I indicated earlier, the numbering of our days may also be given, but I am not going to focus on that now.

We do not enter the Millennial Kingdom here on earth in our natural bodies, but in new glorified bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. When Christ returns in the air on the last day we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord as He has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth as we rule with Him over the nations as His enemies have become His footstool in the end of days, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Rev 5:10; Psalms 110:1-4; Hebrews 10:12, 13.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21 Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of the host (angels) of heaven as while remaining in the air He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him. He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire, Rev 19:15, 16. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the world leaders of every nation on the earth that have followed after the beast that rules their government. The remnant will be slain by the very words Jesus speaks of their damnation as the fowls will be filled with their flesh and at that time Satan will be chained and bound so he can not interfere with the ungodly people that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and the saints will begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.

Rev 20:7-10 Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. These are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after Satan is released for a season, Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9. The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-22 and Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

(IMO 1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number. It is figurative like the numbering in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.)

You have taught the principle of the three heavens very well, thanks. That is a fairly wide-spread, and generally accepted perspective of Christian thought. Some people think that this idea replaces the older Jewish belief in seven heavens, which were represented by the seven classic wandering stars, which were the moon and the more easily visible planets. The seven heavens were represented by the older seven branched menorah, which also represents the seven days of creation. It seems to me that Christianity has neglected the heaven of heavens perspective, in regards to the third heaven. So, some prosaic distinction may be made, such as the tertiary heavens and the septum of heavens. That means that the third tertiary heaven is composed of a septum of heavens, according to the minimum.

In my 67 years I have never heard any teachings about seven heavens. Maybe you could start a new thread and tag me.

This is an interesting perspective, which I have not heard before. Comparing it to the Spirit-led wanderings of Philip is also clever. The timing of Elijah's translation is not definite, however. It occurred after two years into the eight year reign of Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat 2King1:17/ 2Chron21:5. Therefore, Elijah may certainly have still been in the world at the time that he sent his letter to Jehoram. It is true, of course, that the term "translation" is not used in scripture to refer to Elijah, but only to Enoch. Still, the similarity is evident, and God is consistent in His order.
Be blessed, be well.

With all due respect I've already gave the scripture and the history so do not feel the need to go over that again.

 

[for_his_glory]

Clearly not, as I have been consistently telling you otherwise, in some detail, with some aptitude. Therefore, what you appear to be saying here is that you are flatly denying what I am expositing. That's fine, as I respect your ability to so do. However, your denial does not establish the truth, and neither does human position, power, or majority.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

What you speak about continual resurrections does not line up with what Jesus has already said.

 

[for_his_glory]

https://christianforums.net/members/free.19/

for_his_glory

christianforums.net

https://christianforums.net/members/consecrated-life.14726/

A few miscellaneous thoughts.
Psa 41:8 "An evil disease," they say, "clings to him. And now that he lies down, he will rise up no more."
As with Teresa of Avila, so it was thought of David.

As for the coming of the Glory of the Lord, which is the backside of the Father's countenance, I know of one contemporary account which is readily accessible. It is a book by Richard Bach, the author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I think it is called One, but it may be The Bridge Across Forever. I'm not going to dig into my library at this time to find out which one it is. I do not know or promote Richard Bach, and I do not use him as source material.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

Two points here.
1) Women received their dead spirit bodies raised to life again.
2) Some would not compromise their profession of faith for the purpose of being delivered from torture, prefering to hold fast to their profession so that they might obtain a better resurrection.
Concerning point 2: Given that these OT people knew that they were just by Law, and would be a part of the resurrection of the just, why would they wish to obtain a better resurrection?

A "better resurrection" refers to the living conditions of the one being resurrected. Being resurrected in prison, or a brothel, or a psychiatric ward, or starving in a cave, etc, are not preferable circumstances.
It behooves believers to work towards a better resurrection by promoting right doctrine, such that their future circumstances during their resurrection may be propitious and comfortable.
After a proper doctrinal perspective, that begins with the concerns of those who are in need.

A better resurrection is that of being caught up to Christ when He returns and ever more will be with Him.

Concerning Hebrews 11:35 here are two examples. Elijah raise the son of the widow of Zarephath from the dead, 1Kings 17:17-24 and Elisha raised the Shunammite woman's son from the dead, 2Kings 4:17-37. The reason was to show these women who God truly is so they would know the "Great I Am" much like Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead to show others He was "The Great I Am".

 

[for_his_glory]

https://christianforums.net/members/free.19/

for_his_glory

christianforums.net

https://christianforums.net/members/consecrated-life.14726/

A few miscellaneous thoughts.
Psa 41:8 "An evil disease," they say, "clings to him. And now that he lies down, he will rise up no more."
As with Teresa of Avila, so it was thought of David.

As for the coming of the Glory of the Lord, which is the backside of the Father's countenance, I know of one contemporary account which is readily accessible. It is a book by Richard Bach, the author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I think it is called One, but it may be The Bridge Across Forever. I'm not going to dig into my library at this time to find out which one it is. I do not know or promote Richard Bach, and I do not use him as source material.

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.

Two points here.
1) Women received their dead spirit bodies raised to life again.
2) Some would not compromise their profession of faith for the purpose of being delivered from torture, prefering to hold fast to their profession so that they might obtain a better resurrection.
Concerning point 2: Given that these OT people knew that they were just by Law, and would be a part of the resurrection of the just, why would they wish to obtain a better resurrection?

A "better resurrection" refers to the living conditions of the one being resurrected. Being resurrected in prison, or a brothel, or a psychiatric ward, or starving in a cave, etc, are not preferable circumstances.
It behooves believers to work towards a better resurrection by promoting right doctrine, such that their future circumstances during their resurrection may be propitious and comfortable.
After a proper doctrinal perspective, that begins with the concerns of those who are in need.

If you want to tag a member into your post do this without any spaces @ for_his_glory no space between the @ and there name. go ahead and give it a try.

 

[Terraphim]

If the account was about an ongoing resurrection, then the Sadducees' question makes no sense.

Yes, exactly right. I like to quote this passage from Luke, but in Mark, the immediate response from Jesus is:

Mar_12:24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?

That response was because their paradigm was incorrect. Now, Jesus was talking to some of the foremost men of the Jewish faith, who knew scripture, as well as doctrine and tradition. Yet He said such to them, as I must also say to you. Now, I admire your diligence and fortitude and erudition, but there is more than meets the eye here, so to speak. And by the way, congratulations on your change in status, from moderator to administrator.

Reincarnation and transmigration have absolutely no place in Christianity.

From what I have read, belief in transmigration was actually very common in early Christianity, before Catholicism. Whether or not that is so, I do not base my belief in transmigration on that, but rather on several passages of scripture which are fairly clear, as well as the fact that it is necessary as part of the overall picture, as I interpret scripture comprehensively. If I sometimes go overboard, and engage in poor exegesis, it is to emphasize a point which is established in other areas as well. Much of scriptural interpretation is subjective, however, as the nature of the subject matter makes it necessary. You do not seem to understand that quite as well as I. You appear to have more of a fundamentalist, concrete reasoning approach. There are different schools of thought concerning proper exegetical methodology. The degree to which we should lean on the leading of the Holy Spirit is one area of difference. Perhaps that is one of our areas of difficulty.

When Christ returns, that is the day I am talking about:

Yes, I understand that, and to me that is at the end of the times of the Gentiles.

As for my understanding of the Day of His coming, the referenced verse
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
is a simile, grammatically. However, it is a key to understanding scripture. This is well known, but as I use it in this circumstance, you do not approve. However, I am not asking for your approval. Still, I do value your input. It is fairly clear at this point that you are not going to understand things as I do. I have also made it clear that my understanding is not going to be significantly swayed, as I know that it is true. Fortunately, your salvation does not depend on an advanced perspective. The gospel is wonderful in this manner. Even so, it would be to your advantage, but that is up to you. Thank you, be blessed, be well.

 

[Terraphim]

What is postponement theology?

Hi, thanks.
Postponement theology is well known to you, but implicitly understood. It is the point of view that heaven may only be entered after one has physically died. It is counterposed with juxtaposition theology, which is the point of view that one exists in heaven and on earth simultaneously. This perspective also gives greater depth to the phrase,"hell on earth". So, postponement is the premise upon which literalist eschatology is built, as it does not tend to interpret things allegorically. Anyhow, that's my understanding of it, but I'm not a professional theologian.

IMO 1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number

I recall that you wrote about your book in the area of Revelation. Such an interesting area, but somewhat frustrating too. I didn't want to stray off the OP mark too much there, but since the first resurrection is related to the 1000 years, I minimally delved into it. But I noticed that I didn't quite get my perspective right in my above post, but no matter, it's too involved for a casual treatment.

In my 67 years I have never heard any teachings about seven heavens. Maybe you could start a new thread and tag me.

Yes, it should be fairly easy to research. I think that the sun, moon, and 5 visible planets may have been the basis, and these may have been viewed as the visible aspects of 7 angels, hence the 7 Spirits of God in Revelation. God ordered things as signs Gen1:14. I have my hands more than full with this thread at present. What is a tag? Oh, got it, thanks.

What you speak about continual resurrections does not line up with what Jesus has already said.

Yes, we disagree, but I am not so much trying to convince anyone, as I am trying to get people to understand that there is another perspective. It would be nice if some people thought it through and realized that I do have some good points, and maybe it's true. I know that there are other people that have had similar beliefs though.

Concerning Hebrews 11:35 here are two examples.

Those would be the first thing that most people would think of in this regard. I admit that my interpretation there was somewhat speculative. Perhaps I was getting carried away. Still, it works in my theological framework, though you don't agree with it.

You have presented much material, and of that, one thing that really hasn't been discussed much is the great white throne judgment.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
I made a point earlier about Judas Iscariot;

John17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

A son of perdition is not a part of the general resurrection, because his soul is given over to death. Therefore, the resurrection of the unjust does not refer to the wicked, but rather to those who are unjust under the Law but are saved in Jesus Christ.

A further point is that Judas had clearly already been judged. That would be consistent with an ongoing judgement, and not an end-time judgment.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi, thanks.
Postponement theology is well known to you, but implicitly understood. It is the point of view that heaven may only be entered after one has physically died. It is counterposed with juxtaposition theology, which is the point of view that one exists in heaven and on earth simultaneously. This perspective also gives greater depth to the phrase,"hell on earth". So, postponement is the premise upon which literalist eschatology is built, as it does not tend to interpret things allegorically. Anyhow, that's my understanding of it, but I'm not a professional theologian.


I recall that you wrote about your book in the area of Revelation. Such an interesting area, but somewhat frustrating too. I didn't want to stray off the OP mark too much there, but since the first resurrection is related to the 1000 years, I minimally delved into it. But I noticed that I didn't quite get my perspective right in my above post, but no matter, it's too involved for a casual treatment.

Yes, it should be fairly easy to research. I think that the sun, moon, and 5 visible planets may have been the basis, and these may have been viewed as the visible aspects of 7 angels, hence the 7 Spirits of God in Revelation. God ordered things as signs Gen1:14. I have my hands more than full with this thread at present. What is a tag? Oh, got it, thanks.

Yes, we disagree, but I am not so much trying to convince anyone, as I am trying to get people to understand that there is another perspective. It would be nice if some people thought it through and realized that I do have some good points, and maybe it's true. I know that there are other people that have had similar beliefs though.

Those would be the first thing that most people would think of in this regard. I admit that my interpretation there was somewhat speculative. Perhaps I was getting carried away. Still, it works in my theological framework, though you don't agree with it.

You have presented much material, and of that, one thing that really hasn't been discussed much is the great white throne judgment.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
I made a point earlier about Judas Iscariot;

A further point is that Judas had clearly already been judged. That would be consistent with an ongoing judgement, and not an end-time judgment.

There is about three different threads just in you reply. Seven heavens, judgement and the Great White Throne judgement, but these even though good topics need to be there own threads as we are getting way off topic of this one. If you would like to start these new threads please do so, tag me and will join in.