[_ Old Earth _] Does Evolution have any actuall evidence?

[Darth Rave]

Let me start off by making my position known. I am a christian. I belive in God because of my personal life excpereinces. I have come to belive fully in the bible again because of life excpereinces. Because of this I am led to belive things in the bible that I can not personally excperince. There fore I belive in a literal six day creation.

I have a very difficult time belive that something as well designed as DNA came about by chance. It just doesn't make sense that out of this primordial soup spotaneously life was created. The improbability of this just seems astronomical.

Having said that I must state that I have a problem with how a lot of evolutionists approach debate. It seams that a lot of them seem to think that to not belive in evolution = stupidity. While i personally do not have any respect for the theory of evolution I do still respect those that do. Just because I think your opinion of something is wrong does not mean I see you as less of a person. I would hope that you can say the same thing and treat others following those guidelines.

 

[Quath]

Let me start off by making my position known. I am a christian. I belive in God because of my personal life excpereinces. I have come to belive fully in the bible again because of life excpereinces. Because of this I am led to belive things in the bible that I can not personally excperince. There fore I belive in a literal six day creation.

This was how the flat Earth and immovable Earth were established also. However, they were found to be wrong.

The Bible clearly states the Earth does not move. This is why Copernicus had such a hard time with his theory. People read the Bible and believed it so much, that they knew he had to be wrong. They said telescopes alter what we see. They said we would be flung off the Earth if we moved.

So when it was shown that the Earth does move, what happened? People started to reinterpret the Bible. They decided "immovable" must mean something different. However, a clear reading of the Bible shows it means "not moving."

So the same thing has happened with evolution. Some Christians have reinterpretated the Bible to make it consistent with what we observe. They say that God designed with evolution as the process. Or some other interpretation.

But imagine you could go back in time and talk with a person that says the Earth doesn't move. You would have to discount the following passages as outlines by TalkOrigins:

• "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth." (Heb. 1:10)
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• The sun, moon, and stars were created after the firm "foundation of the earth" was laid. (Gen. 1:9-18)
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• "He established the earth upon its foundations, so that it will not totter, forever and ever." (Ps. 104:5)
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• "The world is firmly established, it will not be moved." (Ps. 93:1 & 1 Chron. 16:30)
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• "For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he set the world on them." (I Sam. 2:8)
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• "It is I who have firmly set its pillars." (Ps. 75:3)
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• "Who stretched out the heavens...and established the world." (Jer. 10:12) [/*:m:fccb0]

How would you convince them when they could not accept the Bible is ever infallible?

Quath

 

[aiki]

Hello.

The difference between Evolutionists and Creationists isn't so much that they have different evidence or facts supporting their positions, but that they interpret the same facts and evidence differently. This has everything to do with pre-existing assumptions that the Evolutionist and Creationist hold about the past, which they superimpose upon the evidence produced by science. The battle between the Creationist and the Evolutionist isn't really about the facts themselves, but the interpretation of the facts.

The evolutionist exerts considerable -- actually amazing -- faith in the idea that something came from nothing. You see, in the absence of a Creator this is all that remains as an explanation for the existence of the Universe. In spite of there being absolutely no evidence to believe that such a thing has or could happen, it serves, nonetheless, as the starting point for the evolutionist's interpretation of the facts of science.

The Creationist exerts faith in the idea that the Universe was created by God. Certainly, it takes no greater faith to believe this than to believe that the Universe simply popped, or rather "big-banged" into being. The creationist interprets the facts of science in light of the existence of a Creator.

Does Evolution do a better job than Creation in interpreting the meaning of the facts science offers us? It all depends in what you choose to put your faith: Something from Nothing, or God.

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[lovely]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/ ... ntrism.asp (Bouw)

http://www.leaderu.com/science/kobe.html (Luther)

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/galileo.html (Galileo and his opposers)

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... ongday.asp (Joshua's long day)

http://www.creationists.org/patrickyoun ... tch04.html (Galileo his opposers)

Just thought I would post a few rebuttal articles to Quath's.

Aiki...well said.

Blessings.

 

[Darth Rave]

I would never say that I understand the bible completely. That would just be foolish even if I did understand it all that doest not mean that God revealed everything about how the universe works in it. But the point that I was getting at is just because I don't understand it all doesn't make me wrong. I have seen many an evolutionist take this stand in their own arguments and that seems to be fine. But if a creationist does the same thing they are ridiculed for their lack of knowledge. Just as an evolutionist wasn't there to see the beginning so am I not God to understand all of what He has done in the universe.

And A wonderful post Aiki. Well said indeed.

 

[Asimov]

Hello.

The difference between Evolutionists and Creationists isn't so much that they have different evidence or facts supporting their positions, but that they interpret the same facts and evidence differently.

Except the Creationists have a conclusion and they look for facts to support it.

The evolutionist exerts considerable -- actually amazing -- faith in the idea that something came from nothing.

False, evolution != atheism.

You see, in the absence of a Creator this is all that remains as an explanation for the existence of the Universe.

False, the origins of the universe have nothing to do with evolution.

In spite of there being absolutely no evidence to believe that such a thing has or could happen, it serves, nonetheless, as the starting point for the evolutionist's interpretation of the facts of science.

There's no evidence that God created the universe, since both conjectures are just as valid, I don't see what you're going with this....

The Creationist exerts faith in the idea that the Universe was created by God. Certainly, it takes no greater faith to believe this than to believe that the Universe simply popped, or rather "big-banged" into being. The creationist interprets the facts of science in light of the existence of a Creator.

Evolution != atheism. Evolution != Cosmology. Evolution does not explain origins.

 

[aiki]

Hey, Asimov!

Except the Creationists have a conclusion and they look for facts to support it.

Are you saying that Evolutionists, in contrast, operate differently? There are Evolutionists who assume or conclude that evolution is true. And it is to this conclusion that they conform the facts.

False, evolution != atheism.

I don't think I actually said "evolution equals atheism". I did imply, however, that the two systems of belief more often than not go hand-in-hand. All of the Evolutionists I know, for instance, hold to an atheistic point of view.

I wrote:

You see, in the absence of a Creator this is all that remains as an explanation for the existence of the Universe.

You wrote:

False, the origins of the universe have nothing to do with evolution.

As you can see, I don't actually say in my remark above that the origin of the Universe is explained by evolution.

There's no evidence that God created the universe, since both conjectures are just as valid, I don't see what you're going with this....

The whole point of my post was that, whether you're an Evolutionist, Atheist, or Creationist the exercise of faith comes into play in holding each point of view. For example, no one witnessed the moment when the primordial ooze birthed life. Science cannot reproduce such an event. Nonetheless, it is to this astronomically unlikely beginning to life that most Evolutionists hold. Without the benefit of a hard scientific basis for this beginning, holding to it is as much a matter of faith as believing God created life. This is true for the matter of how the Universe came into being, too.

Evolution != atheism. Evolution != Cosmology. Evolution does not explain origins.

Well, either you are misinformed, or there are a great many evolutionists who don't fully understand the theory they espouse. I don't know how many times I have heard evolutionists on t.v., in the news, and in my university classes declare, quite unequivocally, that life on this planet is the product of a chance convergence of life-producing elements. The Theory of Evolution may not go so far as to address the beginning of the Universe, but it does take a rather faith-filled stab at explaining the origin of life on Earth.

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Darth Rave]

A matter of faith

The whole point of my post was that, whether you're an Evolutionist, Atheist, or Creationist the exercise of faith comes into play in holding each point of view. For example, no one witnessed the moment when the primordial ooze birthed life. Science cannot reproduce such an event. Nonetheless, it is to this astronomically unlikely beginning to life that most Evolutionists hold. Without the benefit of a hard scientific basis for this beginning, holding to it is as much a matter of faith as believing God created life. This is true for the matter of how the Universe came into being, too.

emphasis added

I completely agree. The difference as I see it is in what we are placing our faith. As a christian I place my faith in God. I do this because I have excperienced how He can change a life and how He remains true to His Word. By a personal relationship I have come to trust Him. This is something that cannot be refuted. (It is my life and I know better than any other person what has happened in it.) Because of this fact it only follows that I should belive what He says about the creation of life, the universe, and everything. (The answer is not 42. The answer is Jesus Christ. :P)

 

[cubedbee]

Re: A matter of faith

The whole point of my post was that, whether you're an Evolutionist, Atheist, or Creationist the exercise of faith comes into play in holding each point of view. For example, no one witnessed the moment when the primordial ooze birthed life. Science cannot reproduce such an event. Nonetheless, it is to this astronomically unlikely beginning to life that most Evolutionists hold. Without the benefit of a hard scientific basis for this beginning, holding to it is as much a matter of faith as believing God created life. This is true for the matter of how the Universe came into being, too.

emphasis added

I completely agree. The difference as I see it is in what we are placing our faith. As a christian I place my faith in God. I do this because I have excperienced how He can change a life and how He remains true to His Word. By a personal relationship I have come to trust Him. This is something that cannot be refuted. (It is my life and I know better than any other person what has happened in it.) Because of this fact it only follows that I should belive what He says about the creation of life, the universe, and everything. (The answer is not 42. The answer is Jesus Christ. :P)

As a Christian evolutionist, I completely disagree. Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. I have faith in God. I do not have faith in evolution. I simply accept evolution as being true based on the facts that God has revealed to us. There is nothing I hope for in evolution, nor would I ever say I am certain of it. If it was proved to me tomorrow that evolution is false, my life would not be significantly effected, rather than being a little shamed in admitted I was wrong to all my YEC friends. If it was proved to me tomorrow that God did not exist, my life would be shattered, the basis of it yanked out from under me, and I would have a huge life crisis.

 

[Darth Rave]

Sorry for the confusion. I see where you are coming from perhaps you would be more comfortable with the word belief. but this simply comes down to a matter of semantics, albeit a important one from your point of view. The point is still that none of the theories can be empirically proven or disproven, and therefore come down to a belief.

However i ask you as a Christian where in the Bible does God reveal the truth about evolution. As I recall it He said that He created the world in six days. I now put forth to you has God ever displayed, in His relationship with you, dishonesty. If not perhaps you should revaluate what you belive about evolution.

 

[experimental-robot]

Sorry for the confusion. I see where you are coming from perhaps you would be more comfortable with the word belief. but this simply comes down to a matter of semantics, albeit a important one from your point of view. The point is still that none of the theories can be empirically proven or disproven, and therefore come down to a belief.

However i ask you as a Christian where in the Bible does God reveal the truth about evolution. As I recall it He said that He created the world in six days. I now put forth to you has God ever displayed, in His relationship with you, dishonesty. If not perhaps you should revaluate what you belive about evolution.

i hope you see the irony in ignoring science and taking advantage of it using a computer, the internet, a monitor, mouse etc, all of which are scientific inventions, the same science that scientists and students use in understanding evolution

 

[cubedbee]

However i ask you as a Christian where in the Bible does God reveal the truth about evolution. As I recall it He said that He created the world in six days. I now put forth to you has God ever displayed, in His relationship with you, dishonesty. If not perhaps you should revaluate what you belive about evolution.

The Bible does not reveal the truth about evolution. However, the Bible is not the only source of truth. Romans 1:19-20 says "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" Knowledge of God is written in the creation for us to observe. This validates science as a means for finding the truth. The observation of creation says that the universe is billions of years old, not 6000, and that the evolution of living organisms has happened on this planet.

Yes, I know that God is not dishonest. So, I must decide whether I believe the 6 day creation story is historical truth and God has placed tons of of false evidence for evolution, or if the creation story is a spiritual truth, but historically inaccurate, and the evidence for evolution is true. The latter doesn't involve deception---there is nothing deceptive about conveying truth through an allegorical story.

 

[Darth Rave]

I do not ignore science. It is one of my favorite pass times. I was a Bio-med major my first to years of college,a nd am no pursuing a career in network engineering. But evolution has nothing to do with computers. What you just said makes absolutely no sense. Yes evolutionist use computers as tools that does not prove its acuracy. I would guess that just about all the creationists out there use computers by your logic there that means creationism must be true.

 

[Asimov]

I do not ignore science. It is one of my favorite pass times. I was a Bio-med major my first to years of college,a nd am no pursuing a career in network engineering. But evolution has nothing to do with computers. What you just said makes absolutely no sense. Yes evolutionist use computers as tools that does not prove its acuracy. I would guess that just about all the creationists out there use computers by your logic there that means creationism must be true.

...

He was saying that you shouldn't ignore sciences, because you are using computers created by them...

 

[aiki]

Hello.

Cubedbee:

You wrote:

The Bible does not reveal the truth about evolution.

Are you sure? Evolution's conspicuous absence from the biblical account of Creation makes me wonder. There is no evolutionary progression in the Creation account in Genesis at all.

However, the Bible is not the only source of truth. Romans 1:19-20 says "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" Knowledge of God is written in the creation for us to observe. This validates science as a means for finding the truth.

Actually, Romans 1:19-20 validate science only insofar as it reveals the Creator's "eternal power and Godhead". The "science" of Evolution, however, has obscured God from the minds of millions of people. I really doubt, then, that evolutionary "science" is what the apostle Paul had in mind when he wrote Romans 1:19-20.

The observation of creation says that the universe is billions of years old, not 6000, and that the evolution of living organisms has happened on this planet.

This is an evolutionistic interpretation of the facts. There are other equally valid interpetations.

Yes, I know that God is not dishonest. So, I must decide whether I believe the 6 day creation story is historical truth and God has placed tons of of false evidence for evolution, or if the creation story is a spiritual truth, but historically inaccurate, and the evidence for evolution is true.

These are not your only two options. It is largely Evolutionist scientists who promote the idea that the biblical account of Creation is at odds with the available scientific facts. This is not how many Creation scientists see things, however. They don't see "tons of false evidence" refuting Creation in the scientific data addressing the history of life on Earth. Rather, they find these facts, properly interpreted, to be quite in support of the biblical account of Creation.

The latter doesn't involve deception---there is nothing deceptive about conveying truth through an allegorical story.

There are excellent reasons to dismiss the idea that the Creation account is allegorical:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Ar ... xdays2.asp

In Christ, Aiki.

Oh, by the way, thanks DarthRave and lovely for your approval of my words. Really, any benefit they render is thanks to God, not me. God bless!

 

[experimental-robot]

I do not ignore science. It is one of my favorite pass times. I was a Bio-med major my first to years of college,a nd am no pursuing a career in network engineering. But evolution has nothing to do with computers. What you just said makes absolutely no sense. Yes evolutionist use computers as tools that does not prove its acuracy. I would guess that just about all the creationists out there use computers by your logic there that means creationism must be true.

maybe a logic course would have been better

 

[Darth Rave]

Wow that was pertinent. I was merely pointing out. that experimental-robot's argument made no science. I was deliberately not using logic. Oh and the sciences that invented computers and the sciences that invented evolution are not the same thing. I can empirically prove that a computer works the same cannot be said for evolution.

 

[Darth Rave]

Cubedbe a good book I would recommend is [In Six Days]. It is a collection of articles from scientists, of all studies, giving why they think that creation is a more likely explanation for life, the universe, and everything.

 

[Free]

[quote="Darth Rave":9e897]I do not ignore science. It is one of my favorite pass times. I was a Bio-med major my first to years of college,a nd am no pursuing a career in network engineering. But evolution has nothing to do with computers. What you just said makes absolutely no sense. Yes evolutionist use computers as tools that does not prove its acuracy. I would guess that just about all the creationists out there use computers by your logic there that means creationism must be true.

maybe a logic course would have been better[/quote:9e897]
Of course, Darth Rave is right since it is fallcious to draw a comparison to biological evolution and computers. Unless of course you want to concede that evolution has an intelligent designer behind it guiding it purposefully.

 

[Asimov]

Of course, Darth Rave is right since it is fallcious to draw a comparison to biological evolution and computers. Unless of course you want to concede that evolution has an intelligent designer behind it guiding it purposefully.

He wasn't drawing a comparison between biological evolution and computers....wow....

His post was fallacious, but not in the way you stated it. He should have talked about medicine and genetics, and biologically related things, rather than computers.