Does God LOVE everybody

[brightfame52]

JLB

That’s not the scripture you quoted.

Now Im quoting it, Eph 1:4 is a special chosen people to be saved in Eph 2:4-5

The same great love that saved them in Eph 2:4-5 Chose them in Christ in Eph 1:4

 

[tdidymas]

The price was paid for those in the world to be saved.


The ones who believe will be saved.

It still boils down to: IF God loves every person exactly the same, whether believer or not, then a person has to merit God's acceptance and salvation somehow, since grace cannot possibly be unmerited, according to that premise.

Unmerited grace is the idea that God loves some more than others, since salvation is by grace, and is "because of His love." If God loves everyone exactly the same, then "because of His love" everyone would be saved, since it is "because of His love." But if God loves some more than others, and thus chooses to elect that some to adoption as sons, this makes perfect sense for unmerited grace.

So I expect your answer: is grace merited or unmerited?

 

[JLB]

Do you ubderstand that the text that @brightfame52 is talking about the elect?

Elect and chosen are used interchageably in Scripture.

I know the scripture he initially used which was Ephesians 2:4 did not mention the elect.


Here is Ephesians 2:4 with context.


And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:1-4

• And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

• in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

• among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This verses clearly show that -

we all were by nature children of wrath.
we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh
We all were the same as the others


No mention of any special elect group of people that God selected to be saved, but quite the contrary, Paul clearly shows that everybody is the same… children of the devil and by nature children of wrath just as the others.

 

[JLB]

It still boils down to: IF God loves every person exactly the same, whether believer or not, then a person has to merit God's acceptance and salvation somehow, since grace cannot possibly be unmerited, according to that premise.

Unmerited grace is the idea that God loves some more than others, since salvation is by grace, and is "because of His love." If God loves everyone exactly the same, then "because of His love" everyone would be saved, since it is "because of His love." But if God loves some more than others, and thus chooses to elect that some to adoption as sons, this makes perfect sense for unmerited grace.

So I expect your answer: is grace merited or unmerited?

My answer is always the same.

No one from the TULIP camp has gotten past John 3:16


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17


Jesus said God loves the world.

Jesus said God sent His Son so the world through Him might be saved.


This is the truth.






JLB

 

[brightfame52]

JLB

I know the scripture he initially used which was Ephesians 2:4 did not mention the elect.

The elect were mentioned in Eph 1:4, its the same people Paul was writing to in Eph 2:4. Paul doesnt have to keep saying elect every time he writes something about them in the letter. Just so you know, the entire letter in to and about the elect.

 

[JLB]

JLB



The elect were mentioned in Eph 1:4, its the same people Paul was writing to in Eph 2:4. Paul doesnt have to keep saying elect every time he writes something about them in the letter. Just so you know, the entire letter in to and about the elect.

As we see from the actual scripture in Ephesians 2:4 which you quoted as your proof text, the “us” which you claim are the elect, an elite group of special people who God elected to be saved, and were supposedly saved before they were born, were all people who Paul plainly says were sons of disobedience and were by nature children of wrath, people who conducted themselves in the lusts of the flesh, and mind… just as the others!

• So when exactly were they elected to be saved?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:1-4

• And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

• in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

• among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This verses clearly show that -

we all were by nature children of wrath.
we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh
We all were the same as the others


No mention of any special elect group of people that God selected to be saved, but quite the contrary, Paul clearly shows that everybody is the same… children of the devil and by nature children of wrath just as the others.

 

[electedbyHim]

I know the scripture he initially used which was Ephesians 2:4 did not mention the elect.


Here is Ephesians 2:4 with context.


And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:1-4

• And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

• in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

• among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This verses clearly show that -

we all were by nature children of wrath.
we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh
We all were the same as the others


No mention of any special elect group of people that God selected to be saved, but quite the contrary, Paul clearly shows that everybody is the same… children of the devil and by nature children of wrath just as the others.

Ephesians were written the Christians, the elect as @brightfame52 has been saying.

I do not know why you cannot see in Scripture that Christians are God's elect. I have posted many articale of the types of election in the Bible.

For some reason you and other people do not like that word and avoid it like the plague.

 

[JLB]

Ephesians were written the Christians, the elect as @brightfame52 has been saying.

I do not know why you cannot see in Scripture that Christians are God's elect. I have posted many articale of the types of election in the Bible.

For some reason you and other people do not like that word and avoid it like the plague.

I haven’t seen any scriptures that show us the elect are a special group of people who were saved before they were born.


Here is what the scripture says about the elect. -


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

• the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

The scripture plainly and clearly calls out this group of people by name as THE ELECT.

The scripture plainly states that the desire was for them to ALSO obtain salvation.


Clearly we see from the scriptures that the elect were a group of people that Paul endured all things to present the Gospel to, so that they also may obtain salvation.


Here is my question to you:


Who are the others that have obtained salvation, that Paul desired for the elect to also obtain like them?

 

[electedbyHim]

I haven’t seen any scriptures that show us the elect are a special group of people who were saved before they were born.


Here is what the scripture says about the elect. -


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

• the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation

The scripture plainly and clearly calls out this group of people by name as THE ELECT.

The scripture plainly states that the desire was for them to ALSO obtain salvation.


Clearly we see from the scriptures that the elect were a group of people that Paul endured all things to present the Gospel to, so that they also may obtain salvation.


Here is my question to you:


Who are the others that have obtained salvation, that Paul desired for the elect to also obtain like them?

Here is a better translation than the KJV

2Ti 2:10 nasb For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Those of the elect (chosen), having been chosen for salvation from before the world began, who had not yet come to faith

 

[brightfame52]

As we see from the actual scripture in Ephesians 2:4 which you quoted as your proof text, the “us” which you claim are the elect, an elite group of special people who God elected to be saved, and were supposedly saved before they were born, were all people who Paul plainly says were sons of disobedience and were by nature children of wrath, people who conducted themselves in the lusts of the flesh, and mind… just as the others!

• So when exactly were they elected to be saved?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:1-4

• And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

• in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

• among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This verses clearly show that -

we all were by nature children of wrath.
we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh
We all were the same as the others


No mention of any special elect group of people that God selected to be saved, but quite the contrary, Paul clearly shows that everybody is the same… children of the devil and by nature children of wrath just as the others.

The elect were mentioned in Eph 1:4, its the same people Paul was writing to in Eph 2:4. Paul doesnt have to keep saying elect every time he writes something about them in the letter. Just so you know, the entire letter in to and about the elect.

 

[brightfame52]

1 Jn 4:9-10

1 Jn 4:9-10

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If God Loved all men without exception as some falsely assert, then it is His Purpose that they live [spiritually] through Christ, because He was sent into the world to be a propitiation for their sins, so if all without exception do not live spiritually, but remain dead in sin, God in His Love has failed in that Purpose, there is simply no other conclusion ! 5

 

[JLB]

Here is a better translation than the KJV

2Ti 2:10 nasb For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Those of the elect (chosen), having been chosen for salvation from before the world began, who had not yet come to faith

Yes. The elect or chosen also need salvation.


Amen.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. The elect or chosen also need salvation.


Amen.

The elect is who Salvation is exclusively for 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[JLB]

The elect were mentioned in Eph 1:4, its the same people Paul was writing to in Eph 2:4. Paul doesnt have to keep saying elect every time he writes something about them in the letter. Just so you know, the entire letter in to and about the elect.

Then why didn’t you quote that verse?


Please explain when you believe the elect are saved?


These whom you quoted as being elect, were said to be children of disobedience; children of wrath.

• So when exactly were they elect saved?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:1-4

• And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

• in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

• among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This verses clearly show that -

we all were by nature children of wrath.
we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh
we all were the same as the others

 

[JLB]

The elect is who Salvation is exclusively for 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Exclusively?


How so, when Paul said he suffered to see the elect also obtain salvation?

Salvation can’t be exclusive to the elect if Paul desires for them to ALSO obtain salvation. By saying ALSO the Holy Spirit is indicating that others beside the elect have obtained salvation.

You will have to rethink your claim of salvation being exclusive of the elect since we plainly see that Paul had to endure suffering in order for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation.


Question:

Why would Paul have to endure suffering for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation if they were already saved?


I believe it is evident that the elect refers to Jews; God chosen people.

 

[JLB]

I do not know why you cannot see in Scripture that Christians are God's elect. I have posted many articale of the types of election in the Bible.

Why would Christians, people who are already saved, need to ALSO obtain salvation?



Why would Paul have to endure suffering for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation if they were already saved?

 

[brightfame52]

Then why didn’t you quote that verse?


Please explain when you believe the elect are saved?


These whom you quoted as being elect, were said to be children of disobedience; children of wrath.

• So when exactly were they elect saved?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:1-4

• And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

• in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

• among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This verses clearly show that -

we all were by nature children of wrath.
we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh
we all were the same as the others

The elect were mentioned in Eph 1:4, its the same people Paul was writing to in Eph 2:4. Paul doesnt have to keep saying elect every time he writes something about them in the letter. Just so you know, the entire letter in to and about the elect.

 

[brightfame52]

Exclusively?


How so, when Paul said he suffered to see the elect also obtain salvation?

Salvation can’t be exclusive to the elect if Paul desires for them to ALSO obtain salvation. By saying ALSO the Holy Spirit is indicating that others beside the elect have obtained salvation.

You will have to rethink your claim of salvation being exclusive of the elect since we plainly see that Paul had to endure suffering in order for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation.


Question:

Why would Paul have to endure suffering for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation if they were already saved?


I believe it is evident that the elect refers to Jews; God chosen people.

Yes exclusively. The word also doesnt change that fact, it just means as some elect were already converted and became believers, there are more to be converted and become believrs, especially among the Gentiles. Paul was sent to the Gentiles

2 Tim 1:11

Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 4:17

Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

 

[electedbyHim]

Then why didn’t you quote that verse?


Please explain when you believe the elect are saved?


These whom you quoted as being elect, were said to be children of disobedience; children of wrath.

• So when exactly were they elect saved?

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Ephesians 2:1-4

• And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

• in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

• among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

This verses clearly show that -

we all were by nature children of wrath.
we all conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh
we all were the same as the others

Please explain when you believe the elect are saved?

Whenever God has predetermined the time for those to be saved. No one knows that but the Lord.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[JLB]

The elect were mentioned in Eph 1:4, its the same people Paul was writing to in Eph 2:4. Paul doesnt have to keep saying elect every time he writes something about them in the letter. Just so you know, the entire letter in to and about the elect.

Please answer the question.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


How so, when Paul said he suffered to see the elect also obtain salvation?

Salvation can’t be exclusive to the elect if Paul desires for them to ALSO obtain salvation. By saying ALSO the Holy Spirit is indicating that others beside the elect have obtained salvation.

You will have to rethink your claim of salvation being exclusive of the elect since we plainly see that Paul had to endure suffering in order for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation.


Question:

Why would Paul have to endure suffering for the elect to ALSO obtain salvation if they were already saved?


I believe it is evident that the elect refers to Jews; God chosen people.