Does God LOVE everybody

[Follower Of Christ]

Follower Of Christ



Rom 11:5

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

In my ESV bible I have "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." Still chosen and election are the same meaning so point taken as having it as a sentence in the scripture.

Regardless, I want to emphasize the fact that the acts of repenting of one's sins and believing in the gospel of Christ are prerequisites to receiving grace and yet the choice of undergoing such acts are of one's own free will not due to predestination. The latter I think is what you mean by the doctrine of election of Grace. I do not think this doctrine is mentioned in the bible explicitly.

 

[brightfame52]

Follower Of Christ

Regardless, I want to emphasize the fact that the acts of repenting of one's sins and believing in the gospel of Christ are prerequisites to receiving grace

Actually they are benefits of having been given grace, Christ in saving one gives them repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And we believe through or because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Both Faith and Repentance instead of being requirements for salvation, they occur with the giving/ application of Salvation by Grace.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

In my ESV bible I have "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." Still chosen and election are the same meaning so point taken as having it as a sentence in the scripture.

Regardless, I want to emphasize the fact that the acts of repenting of one's sins and believing in the gospel of Christ are prerequisites to receiving grace and yet the choice of undergoing such acts are of one's own free will not due to predestination. The latter I think is what you mean by the doctrine of election of Grace. I do not think this doctrine is mentioned in the bible explicitly.

Regardless, I know about Romans 8:29-30 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

It might appear Paul is stating that the elect are predestined before time and space to follow a strict chain of acts leading to their eventual glorification. That is the ones called are also justified and then glorified. Yet Christ states many are called and few chosen, so some who are called are not justified and glorified.

The resolution of this paradox which I know is a controversial topic in theology stands in the fact that God sees the heart and what comes from the heart and does not care about surface stuff. So in His plan of contingencies He has set salvation apart for certain humans YET ex-ante no specific human is selected or chosen. We choose out of our free will whether we repent and believe the gospel of Christ and then wait. If it pleases God he then sanctifies the person by grace. Not sure if there is a quota that God has set before time and space so once the fullness of Gentiles is reached the end times arrive. I cannot presume dear faithful in Christ anymore than this and if I continue I am going to start speculating so I shall stop.

Lastly, let's look at the story of King Saul in the bible. He was annointed king by Samuel and it was his choice to listen to Samuel or go his way. He chose to tear Samuel's robe and that sealed his fate. God went on to pick David as the king and the rest followed. So one can say a king was destined to rule for Israelites, yet the first one called to be king failed to qualify and title passed to David.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

Follower Of Christ



Actually they are benefits of having been given grace, Christ in saving one gives them repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

And we believe through or because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Both Faith and Repentance instead of being requirements for salvation, they occur with the giving/ application of Salvation by Grace.

I see your point. I have to think a lot about this and spiritually discern my position. I shall get back to you as soon as I can. Meanwhile I thank you for this exchange. I think the issue we are talking about goes to the core of understanding God's plan about humanity and I'd rather measure my future words carefully.

 

[brightfame52]

Follower Of Christ

It might appear Paul is stating that the elect are predestined before time and space to follow a strict chain of acts leading to their eventual glorification. That is the ones called are also justified and then glorified. Yet Christ states many are called and few chosen, so some who are called are not justified and glorified.

Looks like to me you are mixing different context and not rightly dividing the truth. Its certain the called in Rom 8:30 will be glorified and justified and they were foreknown Vs 29

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I see your point. I have to think a lot about this and spiritually discern my position. I shall get back to you as soon as I can. Meanwhile I thank you for this exchange. I think the issue we are talking about goes to the core of understanding God's plan about humanity and I'd rather measure my future words carefully.

How would you interpret Galatians 1:6 "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—"

And Galatians 5:4 "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

I think grace and salvation are not the same thing. Grace is present in all three stages, repentance, faith in Christ's gospel and then salvation. To be called happens first and it's due to God's grace. If we repent and believe the gospel we wait for salvation that again operates through grace. Yet it's possible to fall away from grace by abandoning the process of salvation.

So, Christ said repent and believe the gospel. Repentance is towards God The Father, belief is about God The Son Christ and His sacrifice and all it entails. Sanctification is about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. All three phases operate under grace for a mortal.

 

[Whatever]

prior to regeneration we are all walking in the flesh or children of the devil.

I wouldn't say that. We might be walking in the flesh and disobedient, but not all children of the devil.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace,

Paul was separated to the gospel before he was born.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Mat 13:37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil . . .

Notice you have good seed that is sown by the Son of Man.
Then you have tares that are sown by the devil.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

It seems that people are already born as good seed of the Son of Man or tares of the devil.
I know that in the Genesis context, "Her seed" is ultimately talking about Jesus, but how does the devil "have seed?" I can only assume by sowing tares.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

I wouldn't say that. We might be walking in the flesh and disobedient, but not all children of the devil.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace,

Paul was separated to the gospel before he was born.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

Mat 13:37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil . . .

Notice you have good seed that is sown by the Son of Man.
Then you have tares that are sown by the devil.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

It seems that people are already born as good seed of the Son of Man or tares of the devil.
I know that in the Genesis context, "Her seed" is ultimately talking about Jesus, but how does the devil "have seed?" I can only assume by sowing tares.

Thank you for bringing this up. From what I know tares are weeds that are difficult to distinguish from wheat until they mature and produce fruit.

Like Paul says in Galatians 5:19-23 "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

By tares and wheat maturing and bearing fruit we have the end of the age or the fullness of the Gentiles being reached. The beautiful thing about the parable is that the wheat shall be turned into flour and flour is uniform everywhere. Flour is turned with water into bread which is the body of Christ, i.e. the elect after resurrection. What was broken during that Passover shall be remade whole.

Now there is also the parable of the true vine. From John 15:1-11, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full."

Sorry for going at length but once grapes turn into wine, wine is again uniform and what was spilled during the Passover shall be offered again in the temple of God together with bread after the resurrection of the elect.

The tares are burned and gone. The bad grapes gone too. You see how just God is by not providing unecessary torment to the tares. Despite what Satan does, God in the love for his craft by contingency brings back together what Satan tried to undo. And Satan shall fail in his attempts for so God loved the world!

Blessings!

 

[brightfame52]

How can those who are hated by God, such as those in Ps 5:5, the workers of iniquity, be those of Jn 3:16 ? Those for sure are in a state of separation from God and His Love, if they are hated by Him. This could never be said of those, whom God Loved through Christ Jesus Rom 8:39, because nothing could separate them from the Love of God, which includes Death, which includes Spiritual Death, this word death is defined as:

the power of death Heb 2:14

figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin Eph 4:18

in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

When God's Elect are in a state of Spiritual death, are they then separated from the Love of God, that is in Christ Jesus ? God forbid ! However the Workers of Iniquity are Ps 5:5, so these cannot be those who God Loved ! 7

 

[D-D-W]

I do not have time to read over 30 pages of posts.

However it would be good to remember that there are different words translated as "love" in the original texts of the bible.

Greek has 4: Agape, Phileo, Eros and Storge. Read CS Lewis' book "The Four Loves" for a good explanation of them.

Hebrew also has at least 3: Ahava, Dod, and Chesed.

 

[brightfame52]

Jn 3:16

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those God Loved in Jn 3:16, that world, had to be viewed by God as in Union with Christ Jesus, those Chosen in Him. For God's Love for any people is in Christ Jesus Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In the original " the Love of God " is thv agaphv tou qeou, as you can see it is preceded by the definite article, Identifying this as the exclusive Love of God, God has no other Love for men apart from His saving and Electing Purpose in Christ Jesus !

When writing about God's Purpose of Election in Rom 9, Paul writes in support of it by the comparing of the twins Jacob and Esau, to testify that it was Jacob that was God's Elect, he writes Rom 9:11-13

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This makes it plain that God's Love is exclusively associated with His Purpose of Election, which Purpose is in Christ Jesus , which Love He Loved them because of being in Him by Election before the foundation Eph 1:4 and Jn 17:23-24

23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I challenge anyone to prove from scripture that the Love of God in Jn 3:16 is not the same exact Love of God in Rom 8:39. Now it would be above foolish to suppose that everyone in the world of Jn 3:16 was in Christ Jesus, but yet, would have to be if "so loved by God" 8

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I do not think so.

I have always said humans have no idea of God's love or hate, it is not like we think.

I do not believe we can fully grasp His love/hate relationship to the regenerate and unregenerate. Post# 161.

God has "a" love for the unsaved, common grace.

Hello, fellow Calvinist! I completely agree with you! People who use human thinking to judge God are on thin ice.

 

[Whatever]

People who use human thinking to judge God are on thin ice.

We aren't judging God. But is it wrong to use God's own Scripture to find out about God?

Psalm_5:5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.

King James
Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

English Standard Version
Lev 20:23 And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them.

 

[brightfame52]

The World God so Loved and Christ Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25, is that universal society of people He foreknew, and those who Love God Rom 8:28-30. For they are the only People who are His, and because of Christ's Death for them, they do and shall depart from iniquity 2 Tim 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

This they do [ depart from iniquity] because Christ by His Death did redeem them from it Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Being redeemed from a vain manner of Life, is being redeemed from iniquity experimentally, this was accomplished by the Blood of Christ alone !

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Thats the world God Loved, the Redeemed world Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;