Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

The unsanctified exhibit their unsanctification every time they succumb to temptation/sin.

No, they show that they need to have their feet washed, not their whole body.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Do this and you will know you have been converted"!
If you are already "saved", how long is Jesus' hair?
I guess "saved" has a lot of contexts, but some use it as an excuse to commit more sin, without guilt.

Yes, I would say mostly unbelievers use their supposed conversion/salvation as an excuse to commit more sin without guilt, for when the true believer does that God has promised to discipline them. The lack of discipline in those who say they can be saved and sin all they want is evidence they don't have the salvation they think they have that allows them to sin with impunity.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we have already "won" why keep running?
Premature rejoicing has been the downfall of too many.

Do you believe a person is saved the moment they believe?

To believe that doesn't have to mean a person will always be saved, no matter what, from that moment forward. And so that should not be a reason to answer, 'no', to the question above.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Though I can see your POV, my own POV is that being saved only comes after the final judgement.
To usurp God's judgement could be a grave error.
Which of our POVs did those who Jesus said "I never knew you." in Matt 7:23 fall under?
The ones who thought they were already saved.
The "race" has yet to be finished.
It doesn't have to be with fear or sadness, as it is most often in rejoicing, victory, and hope.

I think you're making the mistake of thinking that if you believe you are saved in this life then you have to also believe it means you'll always be saved. The person who believes today is saved today (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). That does not mean he will always believe and be saved. It just means they believe and are saved today.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where is that doctrine?

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

"Are saved" and "hold firmly" are both in the present tense. You are presently saved if you are presently holding firmly the word. No mention of tomorrow. Just that you're saved right now if you are holding firmly to the gospel right now. You can check the Greek out here:

1 Corinthians 15 :: King James Version (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

www.blueletterbible.org

Any six year old can say "I am an astronaut.", but until he does at least a little class work, it is only a hope or goal.
So too is our salvation.

Well, as I've shown you, the person who believes today is in fact saved today. Believing is what makes a person a saved person, not work of any kind. The salvation yet to come is the redemption of the physical body. You don't become saved at Christ's return. As an already saved person you are saved through the judgment of fire and receive your glorified body at the return of Christ.

We will experience many tests to shake our faith along the way, but with confidence in God for the escapes He provides, we will eventually secure that for which we strive.
Let Saul, son of Kish, be your example of thinking he "had it in the bag", only to fall in the end.

Just because it is true that we are saved today as the result of today's believing doesn't mean there isn't the potential to be in unbelief tomorrow.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...so we can know for sure".
Do you intend to stop that "striving"? (though I don't think we strive to perfect the fruit of the Spirit as anything from God is already perfect.)

I don't intend to stop that striving. But, as you know, the Bible does warn us to not be arrogant, but afraid (Romans 11:20). By God's grace I will continue to strive to grow in the traits and fruit of the Spirit.

Perhaps it would be better stated that we strive to manifest Christ Jesus' life, and death, more perfectly?

I don't know how you manifest, for example, self control more perfectly. Either you have it or you don't. But I can see how you can learn and grow to walk in it more and more.

2 Peter 1:5-8
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bible does in fact show us that people who are set apart to God for the purpose of holy living do in fact grow up into the practice of holiness in daily living that they have been set apart to. On the books, though, God sees us as having had a bath, needing only our feet (our walk) to be washed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I really think that a true belief will never fade, much less die.
Who knows?

Correct. Who knows.

Each of us is entitled to believe what we want about whether or not the true believer can ever stop believing. I just know the Bible tells us to keep believing, and what will happen if we don't.

 

[Corn Pop]

James 2 is about hypocracy like everything else. Faith and works are united its the same thing, it's walking the talk, that's all it's about. Faith alone doesn't work.

It's impossible to have true faith in Christ and follow him yet favor, but it goes for everything, it's just a basic easy to understand example the scripture gives. its talking about favoritism and that could be anything. Like favoring the rich over the poor and giving the so called important people the best seats in the house, or favoring a fellow brother or sister in christ over others. No such thing as a favorite Christian.

Maybe in the early church days it happened because the church was crooked its even in scripture Paul talks about crookedness in the early church and false teachings andall that, that's why scripture talks about it. Go to church and all the rich and important people get the best seats and served a buffet dinner and the poor had to sit at the back or outside broke and miserable, who knows, wouldn't surprise me.

It still goes on today in way with compulsory tithes, someone broke gives in good faith and doesn't eat for the week while pastor lives in luxury eating lobster and eye filled steak.

 

[Corn Pop]

Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed God and walked his talk until he was told to stop.

Same way a Christian is credited with righteousness when they believe Christ and walk there talk. Christ said love one another so that means don't favor your brothers and sisters, all are equally one in Christ, there is no favoritism.

Some play more important roles in the church like teachers and pastors but everyone is equal in Christ. There is no discrimination.

 

[Hopeful]

The mistake you're making is defining 'sanctification' as sinless perfection.

Was Jesus sanctified?
Yes.
Was Jesus free of sin?
Yes.
Sanctified is freedom from sin.

Not even Paul considered himself to have achieved perfection.

Not in the case of the vessel, (Phil 3:11-12,21), but he did in regard to obedience to God. (Phil 3:15, 1 Cor 15:34, Rom 6:7)

Sanctification simply means you've been set apart by God, usually by washing, for a holy purpose. Or, designated as safe for contact by believers.

Set apart is indeed one of the definitions of "sanctified", but there are other definitions too.
Atoned for, made holy, consecrated, blessed, and cleansed, are all definitions of sanctified.

Jesus tells the disciples that what they need is their feet washed, not their whole bodies again. Sanctification does not make us sinlessly perfect. It does, however, establish us as clean before the Lord. Now it's just a matter of keeping our feet washed.

There are no sanctified sinners.
Jesus and Father see exactly what everyone else sees.
The "invisibility cloak" doctrine is a fraud.

John 13:8-10
Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not only my feet, but my hands and my head as well!”
10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.”
Sanctification does not mean you will never need to wash your feet. It does mean you do not have to wash your whole body again.

How many times must the atoning, sanctifying blood of our Redeemer be applied before one is atoned for and sanctified?
Once is enough.
Jesus dialogue with Peter happened before men could be baptized into Christ and into His death and burial.
So it does not fit this conversation.

 

[Hopeful]

No, they show that they need to have their feet washed, not their whole body.

Did they kick or trip someone or something?
Any action the leg/foot takes is initiated in the mind.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, I would say mostly unbelievers use their supposed conversion/salvation as an excuse to commit more sin without guilt, for when the true believer does that God has promised to discipline them. The lack of discipline in those who say they can be saved and sin all they want is evidence they don't have the salvation they think they have that allows them to sin with impunity.

True believers believe God will destroy the sinners on the last day, so they don't offend Him while they walk on earth.
True believers love and owe God too much to jeopardize their standing in Christ for a few seconds of pleasure.

 

[Hopeful]

Do you believe a person is saved the moment they believe?

If the belief is true, I believe they will be saved...on the last day.

To believe that doesn't have to mean a person will always be saved, no matter what, from that moment forward. And so that should not be a reason to answer, 'no', to the question above.

The truth of their belief will be demonstrated throughout the remaining life of the believer.
Only the false believers waver in their belief.

 

[Hopeful]

I think you're making the mistake of thinking that if you believe you are saved in this life then you have to also believe it means you'll always be saved. The person who believes today is saved today (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). That does not mean he will always believe and be saved. It just means they believe and are saved today.

I don't believe any one is "saved" until the actual "saving" is done on the last day.
Conversion is another matter.
Races are not done until one crosses the finish line.

 

[Hopeful]

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

"Are saved" and "hold firmly" are both in the present tense. You are presently saved if you are presently holding firmly the word. No mention of tomorrow. Just that you're saved right now if you are holding firmly to the gospel right now. You can check the Greek out here:

1 Corinthians 15 :: King James Version (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

www.blueletterbible.org

I will be saved by that gospel, IF I hold firm until the end...just as Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15:2.

Well, as I've shown you, the person who believes today is in fact saved today.

"If" they hold firm, which shows the fragility of belief.

Believing is what makes a person a saved person, not work of any kind.

I agree that faith saves, but without the corresponding deeds, the belief is shown false.
Judas Iscariot had faith, but will not be saved on the day of judgement.

The salvation yet to come is the redemption of the physical body. You don't become saved at Christ's return. As an already saved person you are saved through the judgment of fire and receive your glorified body at the return of Christ.

I don't agree.

Just because it is true that we are saved today as the result of today's believing doesn't mean there isn't the potential to be in unbelief tomorrow.

Yo-yo salvation.
Another accommodation for sinfulness.
The antithesis of "set apart", or of "consecrated", or of "atoned for", or of "made holy".
We will get a new vessel at the return of Christ, but we are new creatures now, if we are in Christ.
New creatures, reborn of God's seed, cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

 

[Hopeful]

I don't intend to stop that striving. But, as you know, the Bible does warn us to not be arrogant, but afraid (Romans 11:20). By God's grace I will continue to strive to grow in the traits and fruit of the Spirit.

Why?
If you are already "saved" why deny yourself the pleasures of this world?
What would be the point of sobriety and chastity?
I say that sarcastically, hoping you can see the source of the "saved already" doctrine.

I don't know how you manifest, for example, self control more perfectly. Either you have it or you don't. But I can see how you can learn and grow to walk in it more and more.

The key there is "More" perfectly.
Before my conversion I had no self-control.

2 Peter 1:5-8
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The KJV of 2 Peter 1:5 words it thusly..."And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;"
Your version of the bible's, "For this very reason" is at odds with the older version's, "And beside this".

The Bible does in fact show us that people who are set apart to God for the purpose of holy living do in fact grow up into the practice of holiness in daily living that they have been set apart to. On the books, though, God sees us as having had a bath, needing only our feet (our walk) to be washed.

Yep, it is called growth in grace and knowledge.

 

[Hopeful]

Correct. Who knows.

Each of us is entitled to believe what we want about whether or not the true believer can ever stop believing. I just know the Bible tells us to keep believing, and what will happen if we don't.

I hope you can see the error in claiming something that is not yet granted.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was Jesus sanctified?
Yes.
Was Jesus free of sin?
Yes.
Sanctified is freedom from sin.

Were the Galatians sanctified?

Galatians 3:2-5

2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

3Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? 5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?



Were the Galatians free of sin?

Galatians 4:8-10
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!

Galatians 5:4-7
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.

7You were running so well. Who has obstructed you from obeying the truth?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not in the case of the vessel, (Phil 3:11-12,21), but he did in regard to obedience to God. (Phil 3:15, 1 Cor 15:34, Rom 6:7)

Those verses do not say Paul was perfect in obedience.

 

[Hopeful]

Were the Galatians sanctified?

I hope some were.

Galatians 3:2-
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
3Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? 5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

Is it a sin to get circumcised?

Were the Galatians free of sin?
Galatians 4:8-10
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
Galatians 5:4-7
4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.
7You were running so well. Who has obstructed you from obeying the truth?

Though in error to believe the Law could provide justification, much less salvation, adhering to the Law couldn't hurt anyone.
It is just that it isn't enough to justify or save anyone.
It would be like getting a PHD in chemistry and then going back to get a BS in chemistry.
Sin?
No.
Unwise?
Yes.