Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Your definition of sanctified is..."surety that they really are called and elected and prepared to enter the kingdom at the end of the age:"
I call that... faith.

Actually, I'd call that 'hope'.

Hebrews 6:11-12 BSB
11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

So, when Peter talks about 'making your calling and election sure' in 2 Peter 1:10 he's saying make sure you really do have the hope of things to come (2 Peter 1:4). And you do that the same way the author of Hebrews says you do that - by striving to live the changed/changing life appropriate to those who have been set apart by God to holiness. That's how you know you are saved.

My definition of sanctified is...atoned for, set apart, consecrated, blessed, made holy.
All things we experience our very first day in Christ.

It's fundamental definition is to be set apart for a holy purpose. Whether you act like it or not all the time is an entirely different thing. But as Peter says in 2 Peter 1:5-11 possessing and growing up into traits and fruit of the Spirit, like self control, indicate that you really do have the hope of the called and the elected. Like knowledge, I can't think of any way to grow up into, for example, self control except to have more and more of it over time, not already perfected in it from the beginning.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Some may consider it sad, but I see it as continued wariness

If you use enduring successfully to the very end as the proof that you are a genuine believer than you can never know in this life that you are a genuine believer because there is always tomorrow's potential failure to reveal that you were never really a true believer to begin with, you just thought you were. And worse, you still can't know for sure even if you start believing again (how will you know this time isn't false, too?). There is no, "oh, I'm believing for real this time", in your theology, because you can't ever know for sure if it's for real in this life.

That is a sad theology. And, it's completely contrary to scripture which says you can know for sure if you are called and elected. The Spirit in us displayed in all kinds of traits and fruit of the Spirit is how one knows for sure they have been called and elected. Not enduring to the end just means you stopped believing, or, obviously, you may have never been a real believer to begin with. But at least you know you really are saved as long as you are believing. That's what the Bible actually teaches.

, so I don't fall from over-confidence.
And so I don't grow complacent.

You don't have to discard the Biblical doctrine of being sure of one's calling and election, now, in this life in order to guard against complacency. In fact, it is the saved that need to guard against complacency, not the unsaved!

 

[Hopeful]

Right.
We are set apart for God's holy purpose the moment we believe and are saved.
But that doesn't mean we act like it.

I disagree.
A man with the knowledge of what his turn from sin entails will act according to that knowledge, and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We grow up into that which God has set us apart to.
Some gots a lot more growing up than others to do. But they have been set apart for that purpose, nonetheless.

Every convert starts from the point of perfection.
God will not put a new convert in the same position He will put a convert of ten years into.
Everyone of us can say "NO" to temptation, from day one.
Actually, every one in earth can say "no" to temptation but they of earth love sin more than they love God.
That kind of mis-love cannot be the case with a convert from darkness unto light.
Everyday we get the chance to manifest both the life an death of our Savior.
So, do so !

 

[Hopeful]

Actually, I'd call that 'hope'.

Hebrews 6:11-12 BSB
11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

So, when Peter talks about 'making your calling and election sure' in 2 Peter 1:10 he's saying make sure you really do have the hope of things to come (2 Peter 1:4). And you do that the same way the author of Hebrews says you do that - by striving to live the changed/changing life appropriate to those who have been set apart by God to holiness. That's how you know you are saved.

I don't see that as sanctification, as only the sanctified have that hope.
The unclean have no real hope, though they may wish it was true.

It's fundamental definition is to be set apart for a holy purpose. Whether you act like it or not all the time is an entirely different thing.

You can't act in a way that you are not.
The unsanctified exhibit their unsanctification every time they succumb to temptation/sin.

But as Peter says in 2 Peter 1:5-11 possessing and growing up into traits and fruit of the Spirit, like self control, indicate that you really do have the hope of the called and the elected.

Hope is a fruit of sanctification.

Like knowledge, I can't think of any way to grow up into, for example, self control except to have more and more of it over time, not already perfected in it from the beginning.

Even Jesus didn't have all knowledge, so using that as a mileage marker on the road to heaven is pointless.
Use the knowledge you have to remain in Christ.
As you gain more knowledge, you will find more ways to manifest Jesus to others.
Keep separating yourself from your "first day in Christ" status.
And "in Christ" manifests sanctification.
Christ is the ultimate in sanctification, so if we are "in Him" we too must be sanctified.
Or else we are not "in Him".

 

[Hopeful]

If you use enduring successfully to the very end as the proof that you are a genuine believer

That is the proof Jesus used in Matt 10:22, 24:13, and Mark 13:13.

than you can never know in this life that you are a genuine believer because there is always tomorrow's potential failure to reveal that you were never really a true believer to begin with, you just thought you were.

Very true, and that doubt keeps me from growing either weary or lax.

And worse, you still can't know for sure even if you start believing again (how will you know this time isn't false, too?). There is no, "oh, I'm believing for real this time", in your theology, because you can't ever know for sure if it's for real in this life.

If you think that is bad, how will the folks who have been saying "I am saved!" feel on the last day when Jesus says He doesn't know them?
Which is worse?

That is a sad theology. And, it's completely contrary to scripture which says you can know for sure if you are called and elected. The Spirit in us displayed in all kinds of traits and fruit of the Spirit is how one knows for sure they have been called and elected. Not enduring to the end just means you stopped believing, or, obviously, you may have never been a real believer to begin with. But at least you know you really are saved as long as you are believing. That's what the Bible actually teaches.

Any idea of how many false believers have led thousands to their dooms?
"Do this and you will be saved"...is the mantra of a thousand false sects.
Those who have grown "comfortably numb" in faith are aching for destruction.
The devil is a lion, seeking out those kinds of folks.

You don't have to discard the Biblical doctrine of being sure of one's calling and election, now, in this life in order to guard against complacency. In fact, it is the saved that need to guard against complacency, not the unsaved!

Quit "guarding" and you're what?
Unsaved.
I will "be sure" of yesterday.
Today, I do battle.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is the proof Jesus used in Matt 10:22, 24:13, and Mark 13:13.

I don't think that anyone disputes the fact that people who endure to the end are genuine believers. What we're addressing here is if you use that "to make our calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10) then you can never do that, even though the Bible exhorts us to do that, because that's not how you do that.

To wait until the very end to see if you endured to the end and are, therefore, a genuine believer is to have a sad, uncertain theology that will produce fear and anxiety in a person, not joy, for you can never know if you are really saved in this life. Which is completely contrary to scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...that doubt keeps me from growing either weary or lax.

But you can't even know if you're saved in the first place for you to be concerned about not grow weary or lax. Fear of growing weary of lax implies you're even saved in the first place, but you can't know that because your criteria for knowing if you are a true believer or not is if you endure all the way to the end, which you can't know until you get to the end. You can never know in this life if what you think is true believing today really is true. That's a very sad, depressing theology.

The much more comforting doctrine is what the Bible actually teaches. In any moment that you are genuinely believing you are indeed saved in that moment. Falling away before the end indicates you've stopped believing, not that you never really believed to begin with. (Yes, of course, it can mean you never really believed to begin with, too.)

The Bible does indeed tell us if we can know if we are really believing and saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns. The presence of the Holy Spirit in a person in all kinds of traits and fruit of the Spirit is how a person knows they are called and elected. That's why we are told to strive to perfect the traits and fruit of the Spirit...so we can know for sure we are saved and ready to meet Jesus at the resurrection.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you think that is bad, how will the folks who have been saying "I am saved!" feel on the last day when Jesus says He doesn't know them?
Which is worse?

Obviously, being lost when you thought you were saved is worse than doubting you're saved and finding out you really are.

The Bible tells us ahead of time how to know we really believe and are saved and ready to stand before Jesus when he returns. So no one has any excuse for not believing, nor any excuse for not knowing if they really believe and are ready to meet Jesus when he comes back.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Do this and you will be saved"...is the mantra of a thousand false sects.

Yes, but what we are talking about here is, "do this and you will KNOW you are saved."

Any idea of how many false believers have led thousands to their dooms?

Many, many I'm sure.
But I'm of the opinion that if there is any potential for a person to bring the word of God to fruition God will make sure it happens and that he will not let anyone who has that potential be held back by the gates of Hades. That's not Calvinism. For I do NOT believe that he purposely makes people to have that potential and some to not have that potential. I'm just saying that if a person has that potential God will see to it that it is realized despite every effort of evil to thwart it.

 

[Nishant_Loves_Jesus]

I think James 2 teaches good works complete and perfect the righteousness received by faith.

James 2:22: "22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?"

(1) faith works together with works (2) by works faith is made perfect. So righteousness (which we receive by faith) is made perfect by good works imo. That seems to be part of what this passage is saying.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who have grown "comfortably numb" in faith are aching for destruction.
The devil is a lion, seeking out those kinds of folks.

Yes, but even Paul, from whom we are taught the truth about "righteousness apart from works" says the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works, works:

Galatians 5:6
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters (towards justification-see context) is faith, expressed through love.

Ultimately, if your faith does not find expression in the obedience of love then you don't have the faith that justifies (makes you righteous) all by itself apart from works of obedience. The church needs to hear this and heed James' warning about 'faith alone', the faith that can not save—the faith that does not work. That's a 'faith' that does not solicit the imputation of God's righteousness in a person by the Holy Spirit because it is a false faith. Recognized as false by the fact that it can not produce the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5 NIV, Romans 16:26 NIV) in a person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Quit "guarding" and you're what?
Unsaved.

...or you're on your way to hardness of heart, that's what:

Hebrews 3:13
13But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

I will "be sure" of yesterday.
Today, I do battle.

As long as you are believing today, you can be sure of today. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think that anyone disputes the fact that people who endure to the end are genuine believers. What we're addressing here is if you use that "to make our calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10) then you can never do that, even though the Bible exhorts us to do that, because that's not how you do that.

I really don't think the two are connected that way.
I don't use my "enduring to the end" as proof that I am "diligently making my calling and election sure"
I do see making my "election sure" as the road map to endure till the end.

To wait until the very end to see if you endured to the end and are, therefore, a genuine believer is to have a sad, uncertain theology that will produce fear and anxiety in a person, not joy, for you can never know if you are really saved in this life. Which is completely contrary to scripture.

When I see the victories in my life against temptation and sin I am heartened, no, elated by the proof of Christ in me.
I don't have anxiety, doubt, about where I am at every day.
I do know that if I stay out of the "dark" God will eventually welcome me into the inheritance He set up for me.
It is those who don't act in accordance with God's wishes that should be anxious and afraid.

Makes me think of a couple of verses...
1 Cor 9:24..."Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
I am not yet done "running".
Hebrews 12:1..."Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

If we have already "won" why keep running?
Premature rejoicing has been the downfall of too many.

 

[Hopeful]

But you can't even know if you're saved in the first place for you to be concerned about not grow weary or lax. Fear of growing weary of lax implies you're even saved in the first place, but you can't know that because your criteria for knowing if you are a true believer or not is if you endure all the way to the end, which you can't know until you get to the end. You can never know in this life if what you think is true believing today really is true. That's a very sad, depressing theology.

Though I can see your POV, my own POV is that being saved only comes after the final judgement.
To usurp God's judgement could be a grave error.
Which of our POVs did those who Jesus said "I never knew you." in Matt 7:23 fall under?
The ones who thought they were already saved.
The "race" has yet to be finished.
It doesn't have to be with fear or sadness, as it is most often in rejoicing, victory, and hope.

The much more comforting doctrine is what the Bible actually teaches. In any moment that you are genuinely believing you are indeed saved in that moment.

Where is that doctrine?
Any six year old can say "I am an astronaut.", but until he does at least a little class work, it is only a hope or goal.
So too is our salvation.
We will experience many tests to shake our faith along the way, but with confidence in God for the escapes He provides, we will eventually secure that for which we strive.
Let Saul, son of Kish, be your example of thinking he "had it in the bag", only to fall in the end.

Falling away before the end indicates you've stopped believing, not that you never really believed to begin with. (Yes, of course, it can mean you never really believed to begin with, too.)

I really think that a true belief will never fade, much less die.
Who knows?

The Bible does indeed tell us if we can know if we are really believing and saved and ready to meet Jesus when he returns. The presence of the Holy Spirit in a person in all kinds of traits and fruit of the Spirit is how a person knows they are called and elected. That's why we are told to strive to perfect the traits and fruit of the Spirit...so we can know for sure we are saved and ready to meet Jesus at the resurrection.

"...so we can know for sure".
Do you intend to stop that "striving"? (though I don't think we strive to perfect the fruit of the Spirit as anything from God is already perfect.)
Perhaps it would be better stated that we strive to manifest Christ Jesus' life, and death, more perfectly?

 

[Hopeful]

Obviously, being lost when you thought you were saved is worse than doubting you're saved and finding out you really are.

The Bible tells us ahead of time how to know we really believe and are saved and ready to stand before Jesus when he returns. So no one has any excuse for not believing, nor any excuse for not knowing if they really believe and are ready to meet Jesus when he comes back.

Nobody know what tomorrow may bring.
How many will fall away when it is time to elect to take the mark of the beast?

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, but what we are talking about here is, "do this and you will KNOW you are saved."

"Do this and you will know you have been converted"!
If you are already "saved", how long is Jesus' hair?
I guess "saved" has a lot of contexts, but some use it as an excuse to commit more sin, without guilt.

Many, many I'm sure.
But I'm of the opinion that if there is any potential for a person to bring the word of God to fruition God will make sure it happens and that he will not let anyone who has that potential be held back by the gates of Hades. That's not Calvinism. For I do NOT believe that he purposely makes people to have that potential and some to not have that potential. I'm just saying that if a person has that potential God will see to it that it is realized despite every effort of evil to thwart it.

Please do not be dulled with a false confidence.
"Stay frosty"!...I have heard in the movies.

 

[Hopeful]

I think James 2 teaches good works complete and perfect the righteousness received by faith.

James 2:22: "22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?"

(1) faith works together with works (2) by works faith is made perfect. So righteousness (which we receive by faith) is made perfect by good works imo. That seems to be part of what this passage is saying.

I see this use of the word "perfect" as "complete"...instead of its usual definition as "unblemished".
"Faith" without its proof, is just an English word.

Welcome to the site !
Happy New Years !

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, but even Paul, from whom we are taught the truth about "righteousness apart from works" says the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works, works:

Galatians 5:6
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters (towards justification-see context) is faith, expressed through love.

Ultimately, if your faith does not find expression in the obedience of love then you don't have the faith that justifies (makes you righteous) all by itself apart from works of obedience. The church needs to hear this and heed James' warning about 'faith alone', the faith that can not save—the faith that does not work. That's a 'faith' that does not solicit the imputation of God's righteousness in a person by the Holy Spirit because it is a false faith. Recognized as false by the fact that it can not produce the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5 NIV, Romans 16:26 NIV) in a person.

The "works" Paul referred to were the works of the Law.
Specifically, circumcision and dietary rules, but also sabbath and feast keeping, tithing, etc.

That aside, you are so right about "faith expressed through love".
As a Christian with a new divine nature, I often don't realize the love that caused my actions until I examine an incident later.
Praise be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

...or you're on your way to hardness of heart, that's what:
Hebrews 3:13
13But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

Thanks for the exhortation.

As long as you are believing today, you can be sure of today. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Yep, "If you hold fast".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Even Jesus didn't have all knowledge, so using that as a mileage marker on the road to heaven is pointless.
Use the knowledge you have to remain in Christ.
As you gain more knowledge, you will find more ways to manifest Jesus to others.
Keep separating yourself from your "first day in Christ" status.
And "in Christ" manifests sanctification.
Christ is the ultimate in sanctification, so if we are "in Him" we too must be sanctified.
Or else we are not "in Him".

The mistake you're making is defining 'sanctification' as sinless perfection. Not even Paul considered himself to have achieved perfection. Sanctification simply means you've been set apart by God, usually by washing, for a holy purpose. Or, designated as safe for contact by believers.

Jesus tells the disciples that what they need is their feet washed, not their whole bodies again. Sanctification does not make us sinlessly perfect. It does, however, establish us as clean before the Lord. Now it's just a matter of keeping our feet washed.

John 13:8-10
Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with Me.”

9“Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not only my feet, but my hands and my head as well!”

10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.”

Sanctification does not mean you will never need to wash your feet. It does mean you do not have to wash your whole body again.