Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

We can/must grow in grace and knowledge, but we start that growth from the point of rebirth from God's seed.
How can anyone be more holy or consecrated (sanctified) than that?
You need a different definition of sanctification.

There is more than one definition and usage of 'sanctification'. There is the sanctification that occurs the moment one is chosen. The believer is set apart for a holy purpose the moment they are saved. And there is the sanctification one grows up into over time. The believer starts the journey to actually becoming what he is set apart to be.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There will still be a day of judgement, no matter how sure we are.
And I am grateful for the provisions God in Jesus Christ has provided us to keep our election sure.

Everybody will stand before God and his life will be examined. And based on that examination we will either go into the fire or into the kingdom (Matthew 25:31-46). John tells us the person who is like Jesus in this life has no fear of judgment.

16...whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. 1 John 4:16-17 BSB

Being like Jesus is how we know for sure we have been called and elected and, thus, have no reason to fear the coming Day of Judgment. Being like Jesus is how we know we have the Holy Spirit in us in salvation, sanctified and set apart from the wickedness of the world, prepared for the renewal of all things and the establishment of God's kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you don't believe "all the way to the end", you don't believe.

What a sad theology. You can never know for sure if you truly believe and are saved until the moment of your death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will wait for God's judgement in terror, instead of claiming any prize before He does the final judging.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." (Pro 9:10)

I understand the warning to not be arrogant in one's faith but rather afraid (Romans 11:20-21 ), but he's talking about a salvation you already have. The believer is already saved. Now it's a matter of whether or not he will remain saved by letting the word by which he was saved remain in him in faith (1 John 2:24-25). But, surely, all the while he is believing he is saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What a sad theology. You can never know for sure if you truly believe and are saved until the moment of your death.

And even if you realize early on in life that you haven't really been a true believer all this time (as evidenced by the fact you stopped believing) and you start believing again thinking it's for real this time you still can't know for sure because enduring to the end is how you know that. Which is contrary to scripture which says you CAN know you are really saved, by if the Spirit is in you in a changed/changing life.

 

[donadams]

WRONG!

Christ was sacrificed ONE TIME, FOR ALL TIME, FOR ALL PEOPLE.
People do not re-sacrifice Christ over and over again. He did it himself ONE TIME, FOR ALL TIME. And so it does not need to be repeated.

Hebrews 9:25-26
25Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY sacrificed the blood and body of Christ on the altar. He did that himself. And, it never ever ever has to be repeated...EVER! That work of redemption is DONE and will never ever be repeated again because it doesn't have to be repeated again! It accomplished everything one time, for all time, for all people.

I replied to this in the forum “it’s not biblical” thanks

 

[donadams]

That really didn't make any sense.
What is it you are responding to?

Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

You said it only applies to Mathias and I agreed

 

[Hopeful]

There is more than one definition and usage of 'sanctification'. There is the sanctification that occurs the moment one is chosen. The believer is set apart for a holy purpose the moment they are saved. And there is the sanctification one grows up into over time. The believer starts the journey to actually becoming what he is set apart to be.

The definition of sanctification that I use doesn't include any more or future holiness, consecration, set apartedness, or atonement than an initial sanctification by the blood of Christ applied to us at water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
You seem to be considering growth in grace and knowledge as "sanctification".

 

[Hopeful]

Everybody will stand before God and his life will be examined. And based on that examination we will either go into the fire or into the kingdom (Matthew 25:31-46). John tells us the person who is like Jesus in this life has no fear of judgment.

16...whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. 1 John 4:16-17 BSB

Being like Jesus is how we know for sure we have been called and elected and, thus, have no reason to fear the coming Day of Judgment. Being like Jesus is how we know we have the Holy Spirit in us in salvation, sanctified and set apart from the wickedness of the world, prepared for the renewal of all things and the establishment of God's kingdom.

I sure hope I keep abiding in Him.
I thank God for the grace to resist the devil so he flees from me. (James 4:7)

 

[Hopeful]

What a sad theology. You can never know for sure if you truly believe and are saved until the moment of your death.

Some may consider it sad, but I see it as continued wariness, so I don't fall from over-confidence.
And so I don't grow complacent.

 

[Hopeful]

I understand the warning to not be arrogant in one's faith but rather afraid (Romans 11:20-21 ), but he's talking about a salvation you already have. The believer is already saved. Now it's a matter of whether or not he will remain saved by letting the word by which he was saved remain in him in faith (1 John 2:24-25). But, surely, all the while he is believing he is saved.

I won't "have it" until I hear that my name is in the book of life on the last day.
But I am "hopeful".

 

[Hopeful]

And even if you realize early on in life that you haven't really been a true believer all this time (as evidenced by the fact you stopped believing) and you start believing again thinking it's for real this time you still can't know for sure because enduring to the end is how you know that. Which is contrary to scripture which says you CAN know you are really saved, by if the Spirit is in you in a changed/changing life.

The evidence of unbelief is sin.
A true repentance from sin yields a life without sin.
As Jesus said, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." (Matt 10:22)
James assed..."Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12)
Love trumps temptation and sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

You said it only applies to Mathias and I agreed

OK, and thankyou.
This did only apply to the election of a new apostle to fulfill the 12's original mission of having witnessed the Lord on earth.
More apostles existed later in an addition to the original 12(a).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You seem to be considering growth in grace and knowledge as "sanctification".

No, it's more than that. Peter lists various traits and works of righteousness that will be ever-increasing within our lives. Call it what you want, but it's clear from the passage that some believers don't start out 100% successful but grow up into the qualities and traits of the Spirit more and more:

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8

And that it is the presence of these ever-increasing traits and works that gives a person the surety that they really are called and elected and prepared to enter the kingdom at the end of the age:

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11

 

[donadams]

The last part of verse 2 is what I refer to when I say I will wait to say "I am saved"..."if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Still predicated on the "IF".

I fear that plenty of self-described believers will be revealed as unbelievers on the day of judgement.
Many believe a lie, and not the truth.

Believes: present tense! A continuous act of perseverance in belief until death!

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Grace or life of God)

Matt 24:13 he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"

Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"

Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away

Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".

Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end

1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ

2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith" (why) 2 cor 10:15 increase you’re faith. (Why)

Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"

2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"

1 Tim 4:1 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,

1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: (Must remain obedient)

 

[donadams]

Not the Philip who was of the seven assigned to do the "chores". (Acts 6:5, 8:5)

How you know it’s that Philip and not the apostle?

 

[Hopeful]

No, it's more than that. Peter lists various traits and works of righteousness that will be ever-increasing within our lives. Call it what you want, but it's clear from the passage that some believers don't start out 100% successful but grow up into the qualities and traits of the Spirit more and more:

We will never be as "dumb" as our first day in Christ, but that doesn't mean we don't start out sanctified.
The new creature, reborn of God's seed, can be nothing but sanctified.
Nothing born of God is unsanctified.

And that it is the presence of these ever-increasing traits and works that gives a person the surety that they really are called and elected and prepared to enter the kingdom at the end of the age:

Your definition of sanctified is..."surety that they really are called and elected and prepared to enter the kingdom at the end of the age:"
I call that... faith.
My definition of sanctified is...atoned for, set apart, consecrated, blessed, made holy.
All things we experience our very first day in Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Believes: present tense! A continuous act of perseverance in belief until death!

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Grace or life of God)
Matt 24:13 he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"
Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"
Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell awa
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".
Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end
1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"
2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ
2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith" (why) 2 cor 10:15 increase you’re faith. (Why)
Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"
2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"
1 Tim 4:1 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"
26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway
Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: (Must remain obedient)

Agreed.
Do you agree with me that sinners are unbelievers?
Most of your kindly supplied scriptures make my case.

 

[Hopeful]

How you know it’s that Philip and not the apostle?

Good question...
Acts 8 starts thusly..."And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison."

Acts 8 continues..."Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them."
The apostles remained in Jerusalem, and it was others who were "scattered abroad".
Including Philip of the seven.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The new creature, reborn of God's seed, can be nothing but sanctified.
Nothing born of God is unsanctified.

Right.
We are set apart for God's holy purpose the moment we believe and are saved.
But that doesn't mean we act like it. We grow up into that which God has set us apart to.
Some gots a lot more growing up than others to do. But they have been set apart for that purpose, nonetheless.