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Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

Dorothy Mae said:
And when Jesus said to judge a tree by it’s fruit, should we abandon that entirely telling ourselves that no one is perfect so essentially works don’t matter?
Click to expand...
Is that what you understand I said? If so, you are reading way more into it than what I wrote. When people twist what another says into meaning something that was not written or spoken, it causes confusion, misunderstanding, and strife.

Here are some of what Scripture has to say about works. It is quite obvious we are not to ignore works for we were created for that purpose.

The Apostle Paul wrote:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV

John the Baptist said:
10 So the people asked him, saying, “What shall we do then?”
11 He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.”
12 Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?”
13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what is appointed for you.”
14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?”
So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”
Luke 3:10-14 NKJV

Moses said:
7 “If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your hand from your poor brother,
8 but you shall open your hand wide to him and willingly lend him sufficient for his need, whatever he needs.
9 Beware lest there be a wicked thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand,’ and your eye be evil against your poor brother and you give him nothing, and he cry out to the Lord against you, and it become sin among you.
10 You shall surely give to him, and your heart should not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the Lord your God will bless you in all your works and in all to which you put your hand.
11 For the poor will never cease from the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor and your needy, in your land.’"
Deuteronomy 15:7-11 NKJV

Jesus said:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV
 
Hopeful said:
If you continue to hold that belief, you will never be "in Christ".
His death and resurrection made it possible.
Click to expand...
You too are adding to what I wrote. I never said any such thing. It is through Christ and what He has done for us that we might be saved. Those who believe have the hope of salvation through Christ.

16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3:16-18 NKJV
 
JackrabbitSlim said:
Did the Apostle Paul sin after salvation? Peter? John?
Click to expand...
I'm thinking Paul did for sure. Romans 7, starting at about verse 13, he speaks of his agony over his carnal vs spiritual self. In the end he writes, "I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
Romans 7:25 NKJV
 
WIP said:
Is that what you understand I said?
Click to expand...
No, not at all. I simply thought further.
WIP said:
If so, you are reading way more into it than what I wrote. When people twist what another says into meaning something that was not written or spoken, it causes confusion, misunderstanding, and strife.
Click to expand...
But I didn’t. Your statement didn’t address the complexity of the “ought” not necessarily being the “is.” In verbal exchanges it’s helpful to build on another’s statements.
WIP said:
Here are some of what Scripture has to say about works. It is quite obvious we are not to ignore works for we were created for that purpose.

The Apostle Paul wrote:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV

John the Baptist said:
10 So the people asked him, saying, “What shall we do then?”
11 He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.”
12 Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?”
13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what is appointed for you.”
14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?”
So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”
Luke 3:10-14 NKJV

Moses said:
7 “If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your hand from your poor brother,
8 but you shall open your hand wide to him and willingly lend him sufficient for his need, whatever he needs.
9 Beware lest there be a wicked thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand,’ and your eye be evil against your poor brother and you give him nothing, and he cry out to the Lord against you, and it become sin among you.
10 You shall surely give to him, and your heart should not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the Lord your God will bless you in all your works and in all to which you put your hand.
11 For the poor will never cease from the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor and your needy, in your land.’"
Deuteronomy 15:7-11 NKJV

Jesus said:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV
Click to expand...
And when the believer isn’t doing these? What then?
 
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WIP said:
Is that what you understand I said? If so, you are reading way more into it than what I wrote. When people twist what another says into meaning something that was not written or spoken, it causes confusion, misunderstanding, and strife.

Here are some of what Scripture has to say about works. It is quite obvious we are not to ignore works for we were created for that purpose.

The Apostle Paul wrote:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV

John the Baptist said:
10 So the people asked him, saying, “What shall we do then?”
11 He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.”
12 Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?”
13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what is appointed for you.”
14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?”
So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”
Luke 3:10-14 NKJV

Moses said:
7 “If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your hand from your poor brother,
8 but you shall open your hand wide to him and willingly lend him sufficient for his need, whatever he needs.
9 Beware lest there be a wicked thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand,’ and your eye be evil against your poor brother and you give him nothing, and he cry out to the Lord against you, and it become sin among you.
10 You shall surely give to him, and your heart should not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the Lord your God will bless you in all your works and in all to which you put your hand.
11 For the poor will never cease from the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor and your needy, in your land.’"
Deuteronomy 15:7-11 NKJV

Jesus said:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46 NKJV
Click to expand...
I think what she is doing is asking the common question in a round-a-bout way, "what amount of works, or lack of works shows you to be a saved or unsaved person." It supposed to be a stumper question, but even she can't answer it definitively. Of course the answer to how many works show you to be saved is your ever-increasing works - 2 Peter 1:8-20. Progress in the things of the Spirit shows one to be saved and sure of their calling and election. That's the Bible answer.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
And when the believer isn’t doing these? What then?
Click to expand...
Peter says it means he has forgotten that he has been cleansed of his past sins - 2 Peter 1:9.

Does this mean he's not saved? We're going to need more information to discern whether or not to regard them as an unbeliever.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The important thing would be to distinguish between works of service and works of obedience. As the Bible says, obedience is better than sacrifice - 2 Samuel 15:22.
Click to expand...
1 Sam. 15:22 is talking about the ritual of animal sacrifice and obedience to the Mosaic Law. Obedience is better than animal sacrifice.

זֶבַח zebach, zeh'-bakh; from H2076; properly, a slaughter, i.e. the flesh of an animal; by implication, a sacrifice (the victim or the act):—offer(-ing), sacrifice.
 
JackrabbitSlim said:
1 Sam. 15:22 is talking about the ritual of animal sacrifice and obedience to the Mosaic Law. Obedience is better than animal sacrifice.

זֶבַח zebach, zeh'-bakh; from H2076; properly, a slaughter, i.e. the flesh of an animal; by implication, a sacrifice (the victim or the act):—offer(-ing), sacrifice.
Click to expand...
And there's a lesson in that. Obedience to the qualities and traits of the Spirit is more important than the sacrifice of our service in the church.

Many, many Christians instantly equate 'obedience' with going to church, praying, giving money, participating in church programs, etc., oblivious to what actually matters the most to God - Christian character according to the fruit of the Spirit. And so they take false comfort in thinking they have been pleasing to God because of the aforementioned sacrifices of service in the church all the while they live impatient, lawless, uncontrolled, angry, disobedient, godless personal lives.

Our church activities will never replace or make up for our disobedience in regard to the fruit of the Spirit. But many people think it does.
 
Hopeful said:
I'm saying the faithful Galatians weren't sinning because faithful people don't commit sin.
Why doesn't that make sense to you?
Click to expand...
Because you're using circular reasoning.

You're answering your own argument, "those in Christ do not sin" by saying, "they don't sin because they are in Christ." All you're doing is bringing the argument back to where it started. And so it remains unanswered and unproven by you.

Hopeful said:
Call it anything you like, as long as the point is understood.
Click to expand...
Your point is understood. What you have failed to do is prove it.
 
WIP said:
You too are adding to what I wrote. I never said any such thing. It is through Christ and what He has done for us that we might be saved. Those who believe have the hope of salvation through Christ.

16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
John 3:16-18 NKJV
Click to expand...
You say no man can live without sin, when it is widely documented that Jesus did just that.
If we truly believe in Him, we will walk as He walked.
He commanded it in Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
I can't imagine believers would be disobedient to anything their Savior commanded.
 
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WIP said:
I'm thinking Paul did for sure. Romans 7, starting at about verse 13, he speaks of his agony over his carnal vs spiritual self. In the end he writes, "I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
Romans 7:25 NKJV
Click to expand...
Paul was writing in the present-narrative tense while he described his life prior to conversion.
He was lamenting his failures to live righteously under the Law.
He started Rom 7 with a clue to his later digression into the narrative with verse 5..."For when we were in the flesh...".
This shows he in not in the flesh later in the chapter.

Rom 7:23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
This is answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Past and answered-present POVs.

Rom 7:24..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Already answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Past and answered-present POVs.

And Paul does indeed thank God in the final verse, wherein the mind is in control and not the "flesh".
 
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