Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Hopeful]

Before a discussion on the role of "works" in believer's life, shouldn't what constitutes "works" be addressed and defined?

Good point.
For starters, the works Paul wrote against, the works of the Law of Moses, are not "for salvation".
He especially singled out circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, and tithing, in certain other verses.
None of those things will insure salvation.
On the other hand, anything that shows our overwhelming love of God, and of our neighbor, will result in our salvation.
These are standard characteristics of those in Christ.
As James points out, if we don't demonstrate those characteristics, we are goners.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

If we "endure till the end", we will be saved.
If you say you are saved now, are you claiming you are a prophet?

How can we "endure till the end?"

 

[Hopeful]

How can we "endure till the end?"

Love God with all our heart, strength, and might; and love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

I'm guessing you're a Calvinist?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And there's a lesson in that. Obedience to the qualities and traits of the Spirit is more important than the sacrifice of our service in the church.

Many, many Christians instantly equate 'obedience' with going to church, praying, giving money, participating in church programs, etc., oblivious to what actually matters the most to God - Christian character according to the fruit of the Spirit. And so they take false comfort in thinking they have been pleasing to God because of the aforementioned sacrifices of service in the church all the while they live impatient, lawless, uncontrolled, angry, disobedient, godless personal lives.

Our church activities will never replace or make up for our disobedience in regard to the fruit of the Spirit. But many people think it does.

What if God asks you to sacrifice or offer your service in church? Then they are the same.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You say no man can live without sin, when it is widely documented that Jesus did just that.
If we truly believe in Him, we will walk as He walked.
He commanded it in Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
I can't imagine believers would be disobedient to anything their Savior commanded.

Believers are constantly and consistently disobedient to what their Savior commands. There’s a poster here who insists she needn’t forgive as she has been forgiven unless the offender repents. That’s disobedience, for example.

It’s actually more rare to find a believer who hears his voice and obeys.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What if God asks you to sacrifice or offer your service in church? Then they are the same.

Unless you have a calling like Paul or Jonah—a watchman kind of calling—the level and quantity of your service is your choice (though even Paul knew he didn't have to go to Jerusalem in Acts 21:11-14). And so they are not the same as the obedience of the fruit of the Spirit, which is never optional or obeyed at our discretion.

Missed opportunities for service in our gifts for us regular people in the church means less rewards, not condemnation. I'm speaking very generally because everyone has to discern their own gift and calling and make their own decision about this subject. Everyone is different in regard to their gift and the faith to walk in that gift and have to honestly and soberly assess what they are to do (Romans 12:3). Maybe you've noticed but some people come into these forums like God has called them to be Elijah on Mt. Carmel, lol. They need to sober up and reassess their gift and calling...and focus on walking in the fruit of the Spirit instead like the rest of us.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Unless you have a calling like Paul or Jonah—a watchman kind of calling—the level and quantity of your service is your choice

Ephesians 4:10-12,
"He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

Hebrews 9:14 (ESV): "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."

Romans 6:13 (ESV): "Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness."

1 Peter 4:1 (ESV): "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God."

We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit in Eph. 5:18. If we lose the filling of the Spirit (by our own actions, i.e sin) there is a way to regain the filling of the Spirit. This is found in 1 John 1:9. There needs to be an understanding between union with Christ, and, communion with Christ. Our union with Christ is eternal, this is our salvation. One communion with Christ is the daily walking by means of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:25). If we walk in the light as Christ is in the light, we have fellowship, not only with other believers, but, with Christ Himself (cf. 1 John 1:7). We are to walk in Christ as He is the light (cf. John 8:12). If we sin-and we do-, this does not mean we have lost our salvation (union), this means we have lost our communion (fellowship) with Christ, and, are no longer filled with the Spirit, this unable to perform "good works." Our union then, is not based on our deeds/works-for there are none righteous (cf. Rom. 3:10)-but, our daily "yielding to the Spirit" for the "service of God." It is only through the motivation of the Spirit, and, our yielding to Him, could we ever perform "good works." So, what are "works" then? They are things we do through the motivation and guidance of the Holy Spirit for the service of God.

 

[WIP]

No, not at all. I simply thought further.

But I didn’t. Your statement didn’t address the complexity of the “ought” not necessarily being the “is.” In verbal exchanges it’s helpful to build on another’s statements.

And when the believer isn’t doing these? What then?

My apologies. Looks like I misunderstood.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My apologies. Looks like I misunderstood.

It’s a difficult subject and more that one way to leave a false impression.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The judgement of our belief will occur on the last day.
What one believes today may change in a month, or year.

All true but that does not make it so you are not saved today. I showed you this in scripture beyond a doubt.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The only people "in Christ" are those whose names will be found in the book of life on the last day.

They aren't made to be 'in Christ' at the last day. They will be revealed to be 'in Christ' on the last day.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see "unbelief" as a sin.

Paul flat out told the Corinthians to stop sinning by believing in a gospel different from what they received and were saved by. Unbelief is indeed a sin. In fact, it is the sin of sins.

 

[JackrabbitSlim]

I don't see "unbelief" as a sin.
It is everything unbelief leads to, that is sin.

Are you a Calvinist?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then the supposed sinners were not being addressed.

Paul does in fact address those who received the Spirit about them then turning away from the gospel they heard and to another gospel, the false gospel of justification by doing works of the law. He addresses them as having received the Spirit at the same time he rebukes them for turning back to the law for justification and into unbelief. There's just no way to honestly deny this. It's plainly written.

 

[donadams]

Not only do we have the ability but we all do sin, even when we refuse to admit or acknowledge it, as I pointed out in post $427 above.

Exceptions being Jesus Christ and Mary

 

[Hopeful]

Believers are constantly and consistently disobedient to what their Savior commands.

You have a very low opinion of "believers".

There’s a poster here who insists she needn’t forgive as she has been forgiven unless the offender repents. That’s disobedience, for example.

Agreed.

It’s actually more rare to find a believer who hears his voice and obeys.

Agreed, but we are out here.

 

[Hopeful]

Hebrews 9:14 (ESV): "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."

Romans 6:13 (ESV): "Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness."

1 Peter 4:1 (ESV): "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God."

We are commanded to be filled with the Spirit in Eph. 5:18. If we lose the filling of the Spirit (by our own actions, i.e sin) there is a way to regain the filling of the Spirit. This is found in 1 John 1:9. There needs to be an understanding between union with Christ, and, communion with Christ. Our union with Christ is eternal, this is our salvation. One communion with Christ is the daily walking by means of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:25). If we walk in the light as Christ is in the light, we have fellowship, not only with other believers, but, with Christ Himself (cf. 1 John 1:7). We are to walk in Christ as He is the light (cf. John 8:12). If we sin-and we do-, this does not mean we have lost our salvation (union), this means we have lost our communion (fellowship) with Christ, and, are no longer filled with the Spirit, this unable to perform "good works." Our union then, is not based on our deeds/works-for there are none righteous (cf. Rom. 3:10)-but, our daily "yielding to the Spirit" for the "service of God." It is only through the motivation of the Spirit, and, our yielding to Him, could we ever perform "good works." So, what are "works" then? They are things we do through the motivation and guidance of the Holy Spirit for the service of God.

Someone walking in the darkness, sin, (Pro 4:19), doesn't know or have fellowship with God. (1 John 1:6, 1 John 2:3-4)

 

[Hopeful]

All true but that does not make it so you are not saved today. I showed you this in scripture beyond a doubt.

If I am saved today, I can go out drugging and drunk driving without heavenly consequence.
No thanks.