Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Hopeful]

As long as I continue to believe, through the gift of faith God has provided, I will indeed continue to possess the eternal life and salvation I now possess. Likewise for you and every other believer.

I hope I can always manifest both the life and death of the Savior until my time is up.
Ergo, I am "Hopeful".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one commits a sin, it witnesses that they are not reborn of God's seed.
Seed that cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

We've already established the fact that growing in the traits and fruits of the Spirit, like self control, is what confirms one's calling and election (2 Peter 1:8), not sinless perfection.

So, say this person who has been working these works of righteousness by the Spirit (thus confirming the sureness of their calling and election) then falls away into unbelief and begins working iniquity. They lose the salvation they surely did have. But you and donadams say what happened is they failed to do the works by which they are MADE saved people at the final judgement.

People are saved from the wrath of God at the final judgement because they are ALREADY saved/born again. They do not become saved/born again people at the final judgement for successful completion of righteous deeds and rituals. That's the works gospel. A different gospel that can not save.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I hope I can always manifest both the life and death of the Savior until my time is up.
Ergo, I am "Hopeful".

Nothing wrong with being hopeful that you continue to be a saved person by continuing to believe. What is wrong is being hopeful that you have completed the righteous deeds and rituals required to become a saved person when Jesus comes back.

If you are not saved/born again in this life before Jesus comes back you will not be saved from God's wrath through Jesus when he comes back.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good verses.
Do you have a point to make?

He's trying to say a person is MADE a saved person at the return of Christ in exchange for the successful completion of the meritorious work of suffering.

He believes this because Catholics believe that works and rituals are meritorious towards salvation when done in faith.

 

[Hopeful]

We've already established the fact that growing in the traits and fruits of the Spirit, like self control, is what confirms one's calling and election (2 Peter 1:8), not sinless perfection.

All the confirmation in the world won't matter on the day of judgement.
If one "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)...he will eventually find out his name is still in the book of life...on the last day.
Thank God for the ways and means of salvation !

So, say this person who has been working these works of righteousness by the Spirit (thus confirming the sureness of their calling and election) then falls away into unbelief and begins working iniquity. They lose the salvation they surely did have. But you and donadams say what happened is they failed to do the works by which they are MADE saved people at the final judgement.

Works can be done by the devil too, so works are proof of nothing.
Matt 7:22-23 says something about that too.

People are saved from the wrath of God at the final judgement because they are ALREADY saved/born again.

Salvation will be granted when your name is found in the book of life on the last day.
To the praise and glory of God, and to the name of Jesus Christ, I hope we both have been manifesting our impending salvation for many years before the judgement.

They do not become saved/born again people at the final judgement for successful completion of righteous deeds and rituals. That's the works gospel. A different gospel that can not save.

You are "jumping the gun".
Rebirth definitely precedes salvation, but it is not equal to it.
If one's conversion is real, they will be saved on the last day.

Question...What are men "saved" from?
The wrath of God?
When will that wrath be delivered?
On the day of judgement...upon which you will be saved...from the wrath of God.

 

[Hopeful]

Nothing wrong with being hopeful that you continue to be a saved person by continuing to believe. What is wrong is being hopeful that you have completed the righteous deeds and rituals required to become a saved person when Jesus comes back.

Every man knows if they are, or are not, living a Godly life.
But no man knows what he may do tomorrow or next year.

If you are not saved/born again in this life before Jesus comes back you will not be saved from God's wrath through Jesus when he comes back.

Is a man floating in the ocean in a life raft after his boat sinks "saved"?
Not until he is picked up and taken to shore.
We are in the "raft", until we are saved.

 

[Hopeful]

He's trying to say a person is MADE a saved person at the return of Christ in exchange for the successful completion of the meritorious work of suffering.

I'ld prefer to hear from him, but if your interpretation is correct, I would reply that the "works" are the result of conversion from being a man who walks in the flesh to a man who walks in the Spirit.
There is no "exchange" involved.

He believes this because Catholics believe that works and rituals are meritorious towards salvation when done in faith.

At least he doesn't think he is already "saved". (I hope)

 

[Anaphora]

Revelation chapter 3, and 19. Works make up your fine linen for eternal life. If person has no righteous deeds, their naked in heaven. James chapter 2, works and faith go together. If person refuses to repent, they will be in sheol, its holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Luke chapter 16, theirs two sides of the gulf, paradise and sheol, neither side can cross over. PSALM chapter 40, patience and trust is essential. Many people attitude is, our way. They dont want to carry cross daily and follow Jesus. Get the picture. Do you see why lot of people go to sheol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All the confirmation in the world won't matter on the day of judgement.

So you're literally saying the Bible is wrong and you CAN'T confirm your calling and election.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Works can be done by the devil too, so works are proof of nothing.

You're literally saying these are wrong:


11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. Hebrews 6:11


10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble 2 Peter 1:10


18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence 1 John 3:18-19


16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.


It's quite clear that works do prove something.

Works can be done by the devil too...

What the devil can't do is love as God loves. Works specific to the love of God can not be faked. The reason most in the church don't believe this is because they don't really know what the love of God looks like in a person. It's a very specific kind of love. And so they think it can be faked and, thus, proves nothing.


16...whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 1 John 4:16-18

If we live a life of God's love, John says there is no fear of the coming judgement because in this life we are like Jesus. That's how you know you are called and elected and ready to meet Jesus at the final judgment. Notice the one who fears does not have the life of love perfected in him. He doesn't have the life (yet) by which he can be sure he is called and elected, saved, born again and ready to meet Jesus.

Matt 7:22-23 says something about that too.

It does.

Just as an evil life shows you are not saved, so the ever increasing righteous life shows you are.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

At least he doesn't think he is already "saved". (I hope)

In light of what they believe there is no such thing as a saved Catholic in this life. Apparently, you think similarly about the matter in your denomination.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is a man floating in the ocean in a life raft after his boat sinks "saved"?

Yes, of course he is. And in regard to Christianity he has the sure promise that he will remain saved and delivered to solid ground if he stays in the raft.

 

[donadams]

God does not impute his righteousness to you in exchange for faithful suffering. But that is what Catholics believe. That's why Catholicism is a works gospel. A gospel that can not save.

Does faith save?
Are we called to faith?
We are also called to suffer.

Called to believe called to suffer
Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Called to both believe and to suffer so both are part of salvation.

You’re gospel is the new gospel 16th century novelty thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does faith save?

Yes, but more importantly for this discussion it is through faith in the forgiveness of God that one is justified (MADE a righteous person), apart from consideration of any and all works (Romans 4:6).

Are we called to faith?
We are also called to suffer.

Yes, of course we are called to have faith.
And we are called to endure suffering.

What you're not getting is suffering, as required as it is, does not MAKE you a righteous person. Suffering does not justify you. If you believe that any righteous work of obedience or ritual MAKES you righteous, then you believe a works gospel. A gospel that can not save you. You are anathema.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Called to both believe and to suffer so both are part of salvation.

They are both components of salvation.
But they are not both components of justification.
Faith all by itself is how God's righteousness is imputed to a person. God does not give his righteousness to a person as payment for doing righteous works and rituals. That is the very works gospel condemned in scripture.

You’re gospel is the new gospel 16th century novelty thanks

No, "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6) is the original gospel spelled out for us in holy scripture. It was rediscovered after centuries of suppression by the Catholic church.

 

[Hopeful]

So you're literally saying the Bible is wrong and you CAN'T confirm your calling and election.

The bible isn't "wrong".
IF you make your calling and election sure, you will never fall.
I will work on that every day for the rest of my life, instead of declaring the "race" is over today.

 

[Hopeful]

You're literally saying these are wrong:
11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. Hebrews 6:11

And if you don't show that diligence?

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble 2 Peter 1:10

And if you don't "strive"?

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence 1 John 3:18-19

And if you don't?

16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

I don't see and end to the "race" there.

It's quite clear that works do prove something.

They can indeed, but tomorrow's works are anybody's guess.

What the devil can't do is love as God loves. Works specific to the love of God can not be faked. The reason most in the church don't believe this is because they don't really know what the love of God looks like in a person. It's a very specific kind of love. And so they think it can be faked and, thus, proves nothing.

If they don't believe it, are they really "in the church"?

16...whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.
18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 1 John 4:16-18
If we live a life of God's love, John says there is no fear of the coming judgement because in this life we are like Jesus. That's how you know you are called and elected and ready to meet Jesus at the final judgment. Notice the one who fears does not have the life of love perfected in him. He doesn't have the life (yet) by which he can be sure he is called and elected, saved, born again and ready to meet Jesus.

Sure today, lost tomorrow.
The "race" goes on.

It does.
Just as an evil life shows you are not saved, so the ever increasing righteous life shows you are.

The "race" goes on !
Until a "winner is declared, I dare not start "spending the prize".

 

[Hopeful]

In light of what they believe there is no such thing as a saved Catholic in this life. Apparently, you think similarly about the matter in your denomination.

I was once saved from drowning, and once from going off a cliff on a motorcycle.
But I wasn't "saved" until I was pulled from the lake or until the motorcycle quit skidding towards the edge.
Salvation/saved is an end result.
I didn't say to the boater "Thanks for saving me", until after I had been pulled from the depths.
I didn't thank God for saving me in Tennessee, until the bike came to a stop.
The "race" goes on !
When you stop "racing" you will be passed.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, of course he is. And in regard to Christianity he has the sure promise that he will remain saved and delivered to solid ground if he stays in the raft.

He wont be "saved" until someone picks him up..."if he stays in the raft".
He has just moved from one form of jeopardy to another.

 

[Hopeful]

They are both components of salvation.
But they are not both components of justification.
Faith all by itself is how God's righteousness is imputed to a person. God does not give his righteousness to a person as payment for doing righteous works and rituals. That is the very works gospel condemned in scripture.


No, "righteousness (by faith) apart from works" (Romans 4:6) is the original gospel spelled out for us in holy scripture. It was rediscovered after centuries of suppression by the Catholic church.

Rom 4:6's "works" were the works of the Mosaic Law, specifically circumcision, dietary rules, tithing, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, etc.
They "save" nobody.
But if we DON'T do those things that pertain to Godliness, we will not be "saved" at our final judgement.