Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[JLB]

Grace is on God's part.

Grace is the God given ability to granted to us unmerited, that empowers or enables us to do His word by which we receive faith.

In short, grace is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of grace.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:28-29

If I may, can I share how this plays out in salvation?


JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Are we in his body by faith alone or baptism?

Yes !
Can't have one without the other.
If you don't have faith, baptism is a bath.
If you don't get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, where is the faith manifested?

 

[Hopeful]

They knew what to do ON THE OUTSIDE and so considered themselves sinlessly perfect, blind to the fact that they were not.

Why separate the outside from the inside?
Both are of the same spirit.
The inside is manifested on the outside.

They lived a life of justification by works in which their righteousness is by perfect and flawless execution of righteous deeds and rituals, instead of becoming and remaining righteous through the continual forgiveness of God as they grow up into perfection.

The "becoming and remaining righteous" option wasn't available to them.
All anyone in the OT could do was do the appropriate sacrifices for sins.
Us in the NT do now have that option, however, as we can cast off the flesh and be reborn of God's seed.
We can walk in, and after the Spirit instead of the "flesh" full time.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

Do Catholics believe you become righteous by doing righteous deeds and rituals?

As an ex-catholic, I don't remember ever trying to, or hearing of ,"becoming righteous".
It was just a matter of going to confession every time you sinned.
I call that "accommodation for sin".
Part of the reason I left them was because I thought we were supposed to be obedient to God, but nobody was.

 

[Hopeful]

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Ephesians 5:25-33
You err, not knowing the word, nor understanding the truth of the scriptures.

I know that we can be one with Christ.
There is no sin in Christ.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44

I can hardly wait for that !
But you read that "corruption" as sin, while I see it as the aging and degeneration of the vessel.

Does Christ Jesus who is seated at the right hand of God, have a natural body or a spiritual body?

How can I distinguish one kind from the other?
After his resurrection from the dead He could still eat, and be touched by others.
In Revelations He is described as a physical being with attributes never seen on earth.
Can't He manifest Himself in any form He wants?
I'll reply BOTH, to your question.

 

[Hopeful]

Im walking in the light, which is love.
Walking in darkness is walking in hate.

If you are walking in the light, God, you are a non-sinner.

He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11

Sinners walk in darkness, as the way of the wicked is as darkness. (Pro 4:19)

Again, please answer the question —
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:7-8
Who does this scripture say, is cleansed from sin?

Those now walking in the light have been cleansed...after their confession.

Those who walk in the light?
or
Those who walk in darkness?

Those who were walking in darkness must be cleansed before they can walk in the Light, as there is no sin in God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why separate the outside from the inside?
Both are of the same spirit.

This is why:

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Romans 7:18

And this is not the struggle of just the not born again person. This is the struggle of anyone, born again, or not, who tries to relate to God through the keeping of laws in the power of the flesh, and not through the qualities of the Spirit.

The inside is manifested on the outside.

If you choose to listen to and walk by the Spirit, then, yes, what is on the inside will manifest on the outside.
And if you choose not to, God is careful to discipline his children, growing them up to be like him in holiness:

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:

“My son, do not take lightly the discipline of the Lord,

and do not lose heart when He rebukes you.

6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves,

and He chastises every son He receives.”b

7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them. Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?

10Our fathers disciplined us for a short time as they thought best, but God disciplines us for our good, so that we may share in His holiness. 11No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields a harvest of righteousness and peacec to those who have been trained by it.

12Therefore strengthen your limp hands and weak knees.d 13Make straight paths for your feet,e so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. Hebrews 12:4-13

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As an ex-catholic, I don't remember ever trying to, or hearing of ,"becoming righteous".

I wouldn't expect you to learn much as a Catholic about becoming righteous the way the scriptures teach that. Being right with God for the vast majority of them means the keeping of various rituals.

But anyway, 'becoming righteous' is called 'Justification' in Paul's writings (James is referring to another definition of 'justified' in his letter).
It's the receiving of God's righteousness. Not your righteousness, because you don't have any of your own.
People who believe in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin are 'justified' (become righteous) in God's sight on the basis of their faith in the blood, apart from the value or merit of righteous work. Romans 4:6.

 

[JLB]

I know that we can be one with Christ.
There is no sin in Christ.

Which brings us back to my point.

We are one spirit with Him now.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50

Our physical bodies are not seated with Christ at the right hand of God in heaven.



JLB

 

[JLB]

But you read that "corruption" as sin, while I see it as the aging and degeneration of the vessel.

Aging, degeneration and dying BECAUSE of sin.

Death is the result of sin.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Romans 5:12

Adam and Eve begin to die because of sin; the law of sin and death.

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. Genesis 2:17


When we are resurrected from the dead, we will have eternal bodies that will not die anymore, just like Jesus; because they are sinless.


But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36



JLB

 

[JLB]

If you are walking in the light, God, you are a non-sinner.

I fully understand that is what you have been programmed to “believe” but as we see from the truth, your “perspective” is the opposite of the truth that is plainly revealed in the scriptures.


Again, please answer the question —


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:7-8


Who does this scripture say, is cleansed from sin?

1. Those who walk in the light?
2. Those who walk in darkness?

 

[donadams]

You have to be careful about the FAITH ALONE crowd.

FAITH ALONE saves us and all Christians believe this.

JLB and Jethro Bodine are not of the FAITH ALONE crowd.

Read carefully what they state.
I hate to have to defend the CC because I'm not even Catholic.
I also hate to say that you do misrepresent it sometimes.
I wish I knew where you get your info from.
Use the CCC or the New Advent Encyclopedia.
You know a lot, maybe it's the way it's presented.

I do see your faith and love you in the Lord.

Thanks
No true Christian can believe a heresy, like faith alone”
We are not saved by our efforts, but God saves us by His grace! Jn 15:5 the grace we receive or is applied to our souls in the sacraments, Jn 1:16-17 psalm 23 acts 2:38-39 etc.

 

[donadams]

Also, see post 1094 about baptism.

Please find a catholic source. Thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God saves us by His grace! Jn 15:5 the grace we receive or is applied to our souls in the sacraments, Jn 1:16-17 psalm 23 acts 2:38-39 etc.

XXXX

This is where you go off the rails, don.

Tag, you're it, wondering

 

[donadams]

XXXX

This is where you go off the rails, don.

Tag, you're it, wondering

Acts 2:39 “this promise”?
What promise?
A promise from God is a sacred oath aka a sacrament
A sacrament is the fruit of the sacrifice of Christ, his merits our grace

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks
No true Christian can believe a heresy, like faith alone”
We are not saved by our efforts, but God saves us by His grace! Jn 15:5 the grace we receive or is applied to our souls in the sacraments, Jn 1:16-17 psalm 23 acts 2:38-39 etc.

Amen to that!

 

[GodsGrace]

XXXX

This is where you go off the rails, don.

Tag, you're it, wondering

donadams is right Jethro.
The CC teaches that grace is received in the sacraments.

This is what Don said:
God saves us by His grace! Jn 15:5 the grace we receive or is applied to our souls in the sacraments, Jn 1:16-17 psalm 23 acts 2:38-39 etc.

I'm not sure what John 15:5 has to do with grace. Maybe that as long as we remain in Christ, He will give us the grace to be able to do God's work - whatever that may be at any given moment. Maybe just communing with Him at times.

John 1:16-17
John 1:16 states that we have all received gracious blessings, one after the other, from God's abundance.

So that's a good verse.

The sacraments, we must say, are not the ONLY way God's gives us His grace.
This may be the sticking point.

Baptism ---- biblical
Communion --- biblical
Confirmation --- A continuation of baptism, I don't really see it in scripture per se. Maybe Don could help out.
Marriage --- biblical
Reconciliation --- confession is to God except Catholics are taught to go to a priest for mortal sins.
Holy Orders --- a man becomes a priest. The NT only mentions that Jesus is a priest.
Annointing of sick --- biblical

 

[GodsGrace]

Go to sleep!

You're worse than my husband !
Bossy, bossy, bossy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please find a catholic source. Thanks

Post 1094 quotes the CCC.
Can't get more Catholic than that!
Catechism of the Catholic Church
(see the last paragraph)

 

[Hopeful]

This is why:
18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Romans 7:18
And this is not the struggle of just the not born again person. This is the struggle of anyone, born again, or not, who tries to relate to God through the keeping of laws in the power of the flesh, and not through the qualities of the Spirit.

You don't seem to realize that this, and other verses in Rom 7, are Paul's laments of his life prior to his conversion, while he still walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh...". Past tense, were.
Rom 7:18..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,)...". Still past tense, "in my flesh".

If you choose to listen to and walk by the Spirit, then, yes, what is on the inside will manifest on the outside.

So too will the "flesh" oriented mind be manifested on the outside.

And if you choose not to, God is careful to discipline his children, growing them up to be like him in holiness:

If you choose not to walk in the Spirit, you are not reborn of God's seed whose fruit doesn't involve a choice any more than a fig seed choosing to bringing forth figs.

4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:
“My son, do not take lightly the discipline of the Lord,
and do not lose heart when He rebukes you.
6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves,
and He chastises every son He receives.”b
7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them. Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?
10Our fathers disciplined us for a short time as they thought best, but God disciplines us for our good, so that we may share in His holiness. 11No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields a harvest of righteousness and peacec to those who have been trained by it.
12Therefore strengthen your limp hands and weak knees. 13Make straight paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. Hebrews 12:4-13

Happy is the faithful son who doesn't require chastisement.