Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[jaybo]

Galatians 5:16-24
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Here's my understanding:
Paul is saying that it is POSSIBLE for us believers to carry out the desires of the flesh.
He's saying NOT to live this way. The spirit and the flesh oppose each other so that we MAY carry out the desire of the flesh, which we should not desire. He says that we may not do the things that we please.

If we are under the spirit, we are no longer under the Law of Moses. Once we know all the laws/rules of Jesus, we will be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Then Paul goes on to list the deeds of the flesh so we can be AWARE of them.

And, yes, I do agree that we need instruction...at least until we are mature Christians...
if this even happens, I'm not sure --- sanctification is an ongoing process and it most probably lasts our entire life.

I think as we walk in the spirit we become more and more sensitive to sin, and thus we will be sinning less and less.

Great post! It should be read and understood by everyone.

 

[JLB]

Great post! It should be read and understood by everyone.

If we are led by the Spirit, then we must obey, or follow, or submit to the Spirit rather than allowing our flesh to reign over us.


This is what being “under grace” means.


For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14


Being under the law of Moses meant under obligation to obey the law of Moses.

Being under grace means under obligation to obey grace.

Grace is not something, grace is Someone; the Spirit of grace is the Holy Spirit, Who is also the Spirit of truth.

Grace teaches us, as does the anointing.


For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11-12


For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14





JLB

 

[brother Paul]

James chapter 2 verse 24 seems to show that you have to have works for your faith in order to be saved. People who claim to believe faith alone but they say that this faith must have works in it, but however that automatically contradicts James 2:24 "..a man is justified and not by faith only", so then this passage talks about faith and works, not faith alone that really works, that's contradictory!

Answer: James 2:24 is not for the Christian Church, that's the solution, it's for Tribulation Jews! - Dr. Gene Kim

Watch the bible study video here: https://www.pass-a-gospel-tract.club/post/does-james-2-teach-works-for-salvation

James 1:1 KJV​

“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.”

James 5:3 KJV​

“Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.”

Which is supported by the Book of Revelation

Revelation 7:4 KJV​

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

James is in full agreement with Paul. Ephesians 2:10 shows us that these works do NOT save but those who are truly filled with the Spirit of Christ will be known by the things that they do. The saved produce these works. Carefully read Isaiah 58:6-12 and Matthew 25:31-46. AGAIN, the works do not save, but the saved do the works (and the works you were foreordained to do may only be to speak encouraging words or pray fervently). Sadly I see many goats among the Evangelical leadership. Not all who believe they are or call themselves Christians have His Spirit (Romans 8:9) which is the point JESUS makes in Matthew 25:1-13 and elsewhere. How shall we know the true from the false? You shall know them by their fruits..

 

[GodsGrace]

Because they redefine faith to mean faith and works. And so when they say faith they mean faith and works. But you don't know that until you engage them in discussion. Which few Protestants do, and so we are deceived into thinking it's a religion that pretty much believes what we do, and so we tolerate them.

Next time you engage, use one or all of the links I've sent you.
If they say WE ARE SAVED, JUSTIFIED, by faith and works --- it's wrong.
You have to remember that Catholics use the word JUSTIFIED, instead of how we use
Justified and Sanctified.
They say ongoing sanctification = sanctified
Final Justification = Glorified.

For ongoing justification we can then discuss works. like we do on this forum ad infinitum since I've been here.

Catholicsim is NOT a different gospel.
I'd say, rather, that they practice some things we don't agree with:
Purgatory
Confession, Reconciliation
Indulgences (they are NOT paid for)
They pray to saints for intercession

However, we agree on how one becomes saved....the atonement of Jesus and His resurrection...
all the teachings of Paul, man is born with a sin nature...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those made righteous have done the "works" to be made righteous.
None of which are of the Law that Paul wrote about.

There is nothing in Paul's teaching about "righteousness apart from works" to even remotely suggest that he means that one becomes righteous by doing different works other than the works of the law.

His whole teaching is based on the fact that a person is made righteous in God's sight by having one's sins forgiven by having faith in the blood, not made righteous in exchange for the satisfactory performance of a righteous ritual or the obedience of a righteous command.

To think you have to do a righteous ritual or keep righteous commands in order to become righteous in God's sight is to believe the very works gospel that Paul says cannot justify you.

For example, Catholics think if they drink and eat the body of Christ in faith they will be saved. Their faith is in the ritual and the elements as if the ritual and the elements are a potion that in and of itself makes them saved. That is a works gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering , the whole Prostent Reformation is based on Luther's revelation of justification by faith, not works, and so I'm cornfuzzled as to why any Catholic would seek to assert they also believe as Luther did about faith.

This is a good question.

Luther was 500 or more years ago.
The CC had lost its way...that's the best way I could describe it.
It started out good, but got lost along the way.
Maybe absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Luther was upset about the indulgences being sold in the church.
And he was right, of course.
Also, he was reading Ephesians 2:8 and he had a lucid moment as to what it meant.

The CC had been teaching it's lay persons to just follow church instructions and they would be saved.
This included not only good works, but payments to the church, strict adherence to the rules of the church, etc.
When Luther really understood Ephesians 2:8 he realized that he was truly free in Christ and his faith and wanted to disseminate this feeling he had for God and God's rules.

One little problem here....Luther taught FAITH ALONE.
NOT ONLY FAITH.

Only Faith means we are saved by faith only, only faith.
Nothing else but God calling and our response to Him.
It's a free gift along with salvation. In Ephesians 2:8 everything is a gift, both faith and salvation.

FAITH ALONE means what you and I argue all the time with others.
Faith ALONE cannot save because it is a dead faith....James.
With faith some kind of personal change must take place...
an internal change which leads to external "good deeds/works".

Just to continue a little more, hope I'm not going to conflate the issue...
At the Council of Trent it was declared that faith and works are necessary for justification...
It was battling the reformed and came up with some ideas.
But, we have to ask, which justification?
The salvific justification? Only God can save, nothing we do.
But ongoing justification (sanctification) does require good works/deeds.

So there you have it.
That's the best I can do.

 

[donadams]

How do we obtain mercy?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith ALONE cannot save because it is a dead faith....James.
With faith some kind of personal change must take place...
an internal change which leads to external "good deeds/works".

Yes, but that faith that saves justifies the person who has it (that is, they become righteous by that faith) before that faith does anything righteous. Catholic theology says this is not true, correct?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just to continue a little more, hope I'm not going to conflate the issue...
At the Council of Trent it was declared that faith and works are necessary for justification...
It was battling the reformed and came up with some ideas.
But, we have to ask, which justification?

The salvific justification? Only God can save, nothing we do.

Yes, which justification?

Paul is talking about being justified insofar as being imputed the righteousness of God. This happens entirely by faith apart from works.

James is talking about being justified insofar as works show you to have the imputation of God's righteousness. He is not saying works solicit the imputation of God's righteousness. No. Works are only able to show you to be righteous in God, not make you righteous in God.

But ongoing justification (sanctification) does require good works/deeds.

The justification James is talking about happens continually as we live in obedience to God's commands. Our obedience, when it happens, shows us to have the righteousness that Paul says we receive one time for all time entirely by faith, not works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do we obtain mercy?

NOT by doing righteous things. That's the works gospel.

You receive mercy by receiving God's forgiveness APART FROM WORKS.

This truth is what shows the Catholic religion to be a works religion. It says you receive mercy in justification/salvation by doing righteous rituals and obeying righteous commands. That's the works gospel!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But ongoing justification (sanctification) does require good works/deeds.

This is where the conflation comes in.

Justification is not sanctification.

The process of growing up more and more into the holy behavior of God (sanctification) will justify you as possessing the righteousness of God received through faith all by itself apart from works. Sanctification SHOWS you to be justified by faith in Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Galatians 5:16-24
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Here's my understanding:
Paul is saying that it is POSSIBLE for us believers to carry out the desires of the flesh.

How would that be possible in light of Gal 5:24?
There is so "flesh" to satisfy !

He's saying NOT to live this way. The spirit and the flesh oppose each other so that we MAY carry out the desire of the flesh, which we should not desire. He says that we may not do the things that we please.
If we are under the spirit, we are no longer under the Law of Moses. Once we know all the laws/rules of Jesus, we will be guided by the Holy Spirit.
Then Paul goes on to list the deeds of the flesh so we can be AWARE of them.
And, yes, I do agree that we need instruction...at least until we are mature Christians...
if this even happens, I'm not sure --- sanctification is an ongoing process and it most probably lasts our entire life.

I think as we walk in the spirit we become more and more sensitive to sin, and thus we will be sinning less and less.

That is an accommodation for sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Those who walk in the light, are the ones who are cleansed from all sin.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Agreed, as the uncleansed cannot walk in God.

 

[Hopeful]

Actually verse 7 is the verse quoted.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
Those who walk in the light are the ones who have fellowship, and are the ones who are cleansed from sin.

Agreed, as the unclean, sinners, cannot walk "in God".

 

[Hopeful]

So you believe Jesus was teaching Old Testament principles to His disciples or New Testament principles?
JLB

Jesus was in the OT, talking with OT folks.
His "principles" were summed up with..."Love God with all your heart and strength, and love your neighbors as you love yourself".
They are both Old and New.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but that faith that saves justifies the person who has it (that is, they become righteous by that faith) before that faith does anything righteous. Catholic theology says this is not true, correct?

I don't understand.
Could you reword?

The faith of the person justifies.
They become righteous by that faith.

I don't get the rest...

 

[Hopeful]

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
Where is the sin, Paul exhorts water baptized Christians, to not let reign, so that we obey its lusts?

It is uncommitted, so is nowhere.
If you don't commit sin, it can't reign anywhere.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, which justification?

Paul is talking about being justified insofar as being imputed the righteousness of God. This happens entirely by faith apart from works.

James is talking about being justified insofar as works show you to have the imputation of God's righteousness. He is not saying works solicit the imputation of God's righteousness. No. Works are only able to show you to be righteous in God, not make you righteous in God.


The justification James is talking about happens continually as we live in obedience to God's commands. Our obedience, when it happens, shows us to have the righteousness that Paul says we receive one time for all time entirely by faith, not works.

Agreed.
And the CC agrees with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is where the conflation comes in.

Justification is not sanctification.

The process of growing up more and more into the holy behavior of God (sanctification) will justify you as possessing the righteousness of God received through faith all by itself apart from works. Sanctification SHOWS you to be justified by faith in Christ.

I want to understand better.
I thought I did understand you till the above...

 

[JLB]

Agreed, as the uncleansed cannot walk in God.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

They same people who walk in the light as He is in the light, are the same people whom the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin.