Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[JLB]

Jesus was in the OT, talking with OT folks.

False.

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
Luke 16:16




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

How would that be possible in light of Gal 5:24?
There is so "flesh" to satisfy !

That is an accommodation for sin.

Hopeful,
To YOU everything is an accommodation to sin!

You must scare off many new Christians....
Because you state something that is impossible to do.
It's just not possible to never sin.
Saying you never sin, is a sin.
It's the sin of pride.
Maybe thinking you're better than everyone else because they are unable to do something you find easy to do?
I said MAYBE,,,I don't know you enough to think any such thing of you.
However, saying you don't sin IS prideful.

Pride:
a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.
The Early Church Fathers were rather shocked to discover that after persons were baptized, they still kept on sinning at times. The early church thought baptism would forgive all past sins, and not allow further sins since the person was made dead and alive again In Christ. Surely they would begin to act as Christ did...

But...to
Galatians 5:24
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Legalism was being proffered by some in the church.
Paul was stating that the Christians were under grace and not under legalism.
In verse 24 Paul is saying that believers have crucified their sinful nature to the cross, some call this the flesh,
we crucify the flesh. But it is not totally dead. Scripture does not teach this.

It teaches that it is possible to still sin and this is why we have an advocate with the Father.
1 John 2.1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;



If all sinning stopped, we would have no need of an advocate.

 

[JLB]

It is uncommitted, so is nowhere.
If you don't commit sin, it can't reign anywhere.

No one has stated anything about committing sin.

Once again your preconceived indoctrination is exalting itself against what the plain words of scripture so undeniably say.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

Paul plainly states that the sin in the mortal body of these water baptized Christians was not to reign over them, forcing them to obey it’s lusts.


You are living in denial of the scriptural truth of God’s word.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Agreed.
And the CC agrees with you.

Then how can donadams and other online Catholics be so wrong? Especially when they brag about their unity of doctrine and shame us for our lack of it. They must be loose cannons of Catholicism, just as we have our loose cannons in Protestantism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hopeful,
To YOU everything is an accommodation to sin!

You must scare off many new Christians....
Because you state something that is impossible to do.
It's just not possible to never sin.
Saying you never sin, is a sin.
It's the sin of pride.
Maybe thinking you're better than everyone else because they are unable to do something you find easy to do?
I said MAYBE,,,I don't know you enough to think any such thing of you.
However, saying you don't sin IS prideful.

Pride:
a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.
The Early Church Fathers were rather shocked to discover that after persons were baptized, they still kept on sinning at times. The early church thought baptism would forgive all past sins, and not allow further sins since the person was made dead and alive again In Christ. Surely they would begin to act as Christ did...

But...to
Galatians 5:24
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Legalism was being proffered by some in the church.
Paul was stating that the Christians were under grace and not under legalism.
In verse 24 Paul is saying that believers have crucified their sinful nature to the cross, some call this the flesh,
we crucify the flesh. But it is not totally dead. Scripture does not teach this.

It teaches that it is possible to still sin and this is why we have an advocate with the Father.
1 John 2.1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;



If all sinning stopped, we would have no need of an advocate.

This is why I called his religion the religion of the Pharisees.

I'm amazed at the blindness of the Christian who is sure he not only doesn't sin, but who claims they never have since believing. That's blindness!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't understand.
Could you reword?

The faith of the person justifies.
They become righteous by that faith.

I don't get the rest...

I will explain later when I'm on a PC and not this stupid phone.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then how can @donaand other online Catholics be so wrong? Especially when they brag about their unity of doctrine and shame us for our lack of it. They must be loose cannons of Catholicism, just as we have our loose cannons in Protestantism.

I don't see absolute unity of doctrine.
Certainly, Catholics are more unified than Protestants are.
We're a mess and I've said this many times.
We absolutely should be more unified...
For every little disagreement on some nuance, groups split off and make their own denomination.
This is terrible.

I wouldn't believe online Catholics.
There's one guy over on the Board that I threatened with going to his Bishop.
But, of course, I don't even know where he lives. It was just so upsetting to see what he does.

We have the fortune here on this forum to have Mungo and Walpole who know Catholic doctrine inside out.
I would trust them, but no one else. Don hits on some good stuff, but not always and I never know what he's quoting.
(and he won't tell). I think a lot of it is his own understanding.

And I just don't see any deceitfulness at all.
It would be nice to discuss what doctrine we don't agree with instead of accusing them of stuff they don't even believe or teach.
I do this at times in the Catholicism thread.
Not to argue, but to glean.
I think we can always learn from any denomination.
I know Catholicism, Nazarene, Assy of God, reformed and general Protestantism incl teachings we don't all agree on within Protestantism.

 

[GodsGrace]

I will explain later when I'm on a PC and not this stupid phone.

I hate writing on a phone too.
And the AUTOCORRECT !!
2

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I hate writing on a phone too.
And the AUTOCORRECT !!
2

Yeah, I know, lol.
Auto correct turns a person into Norm Crosby.
Google it if you forgot who that was and what his shtick was.
Remember, he'd say something like, "I kept it for posterior sake" ('prosperity' sake).
Auto corset does that to all of us, lol.

 

[Hopeful]

There is nothing in Paul's teaching about "righteousness apart from works" to even remotely suggest that he means that one becomes righteous by doing different works other than the works of the law.

Where in the Law are men commanded to turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?
I abhor calling repentance from sin and water baptism "works", because of the false doctrine advising people to just sit on their hands and be saved.
Even believing is a "work" to some.
Frankly speaking though, many thing Paul taught had some nuance of freedom from the "works" of the Law.
Especially from circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping, tithing, etc.
Isn't that righteousness apart from "works"?

His whole teaching is based on the fact that a person is made righteous in God's sight by having one's sins forgiven by having faith in the blood, not made righteous in exchange for the satisfactory performance of a righteous ritual or the obedience of a righteous command.

The twelve at Ephesus will disagree with that.
BTW, "faith in the blood" occurs at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
That is when/where His sanctifying, justifying, atoning blood is applied to our vessels.

To think you have to do a righteous ritual or keep righteous commands in order to become righteous in God's sight is to believe the very works gospel that Paul says cannot justify you.

You confuse the "works of the Law" with simple obedience.
What did Paul do with the twelve at Ephesus?
He didn't say..."OK, your all set" !

For example, Catholics think if they drink and eat the body of Christ in faith they will be saved. Their faith is in the ritual and the elements as if the ritual and the elements are a potion that in and of itself makes them saved. That is a works gospel.

Too bad all their rituals are done without an initial repentance from sin.
Without repentance, there is no salvation.

 

[Hopeful]

How do we obtain mercy?

It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)
Turn from sin, permanently !

 

[Hopeful]

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

They same people who walk in the light as He is in the light, are the same people whom the blood of Jesus cleanses from sin.

Absolutely, as the cleansing by the blood of Christ allows our entry into the light...which is God.
Do you believe that the "cleansing" washes away all our sins?
Then why cant they in the light say they have no sins?
They can, as it is only those still walking in sin/darkness who cannot say it.

 

[Hopeful]

False.

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
Luke 16:16
JLB

The NT started at the resurrection of Christ.
The final sacrificial Lamb had been offered.
A different thread though...

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful,
To YOU everything is an accommodation to sin!

Just the false doctrines.

You must scare off many new Christians....

Just the posers.

Because you state something that is impossible to do.
It's just not possible to never sin.

Have you no faith in the difference between the old man and the man reborn of God's seed?

Saying you never sin, is a sin.

It would be a sin if I still committed sin.
But I walk in the light/God, and there is no sin in God.

It's the sin of pride.
Maybe thinking you're better than everyone else because they are unable to do something you find easy to do?

It is possible for every person to turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins.

I said MAYBE,,,I don't know you enough to think any such thing of you.
However, saying you don't sin IS prideful.

Sinlessness is the testimony of the efficacy of the suffering and death of our Savior.
Sin is the antithesis of love.

Pride:
a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired.

The "achievement" is the Lord's.
He freed me from service to sin, and can save you as well.

The Early Church Fathers were rather shocked to discover that after persons were baptized, they still kept on sinning at times.

No they weren't.
The apostles of the Lord could recognize posers immediately.
Ananias and Sapphira come to mind.

The early church thought baptism would forgive all past sins, and not allow further sins since the person was made dead and alive again In Christ. Surely they would begin to act as Christ did...

That part is correct.
Old man...destroyed, (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24), new man...raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

But...to
Galatians 5:24
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

Amen to that.
But why quote it if you don't believe it?

Legalism was being proffered by some in the church.

Why not call it what it was...Judaism.
A return to a necessity to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic Laws.

Paul was stating that the Christians were under grace and not under legalism.

Indeed, there was no further need for circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, etc.

In verse 24 Paul is saying that believers have crucified their sinful nature to the cross, some call this the flesh,
we crucify the flesh. But it is not totally dead. Scripture does not teach this.

Then you don't believe the scripture you cite.

It teaches that it is possible to still sin and this is why we have an advocate with the Father.
1 John 2.1
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
If all sinning stopped, we would have no need of an advocate.

The "any man" of 1 John 2:1 is the man not yet in Christ.
They are still walking in darkness/sin.
Go down a few more verses..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)

 

[Hopeful]

No one has stated anything about committing sin.

If it reigns in a body, it was committed.

Once again your preconceived indoctrination is exalting itself against what the plain words of scripture so undeniably say.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
Paul plainly states that the sin in the mortal body of these water baptized Christians was not to reign over them, forcing them to obey it’s lusts.

No, he doesn't.
It is your reading of the verse incorrectly that gives you that impression.
You read it this way..."do not let sin in your mortal body reign, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
You errantly conclude that there is sin in your newly reborn of the seed of God body, regardless of the union we share in Christ, ignoring the complete forgiveness of past sins by the blood of Christ.

You are living in denial of the scriptural truth of God’s word.

You errantly conclude that we have not been made free by the truth of John 8:32-34.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't understand.
Could you reword?

The faith of the person justifies.
They become righteous by that faith.

I don't get the rest...

A person becomes righteous through their faith before and apart from the performance of work.

Faith will surely produce work, if it's genuine. But the work that follows faith in no way shape or form contributes to a person receiving the righteousness of God. That happens when a person has faith before they do any work just like it did for our example of righteousness through faith, Abraham.

Catholics say you have to have faith and perform their rituals in order to become righteous. That's why there is the Catholic church and a Protestant church. This is the fundamental disagreement between us. It is an important and critical difference that demands that we each stay on our own side of the great chasm between us.

I can summarize it like this:

Catholics: I am not justified/saved until I have faith in God and do the rituals/works commanded by the Catholic church, and continue to do them.

Protestants: I am not justified/saved until I have faith in God. If I don't do works that doesn't mean I didn't do the works necessary to be justified/saved. It means I do not have the faith that justifies/saves.

 

[JLB]

Absolutely, as the cleansing by the blood of Christ allows our entry into the light...which is God.
Do you believe that the "cleansing" washes away all our sins?
Then why cant they in the light say they have no sins?
They can, as it is only those still walking in sin/darkness who cannot say it.

The scripture plainly says those who walk in the light, are the same ones who have their sins cleansed.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

There is no broken fellowship mentioned in this scripture.

If anyone of us does sin, we can confess our sins and be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9


God does not want us to sin, however if we should sin, we can confess our sin and He will cleanse us, so that we can continue walking with Him in the light.


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2


As we see, the blood of Jesus is for our sins, as well as for the whole world… if we confess our sins, He will forgive us and cleanse us.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where in the Law are men commanded to turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?

The Day of Atonement. And all the various ceremonial washings required by the law.

These are works that have zero power to cause you to become a righteous person. Only the washing of God's forgiveness by virtue of the blood of Christ, received by faith, not works, can make you a righteous person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I abhor calling repentance from sin and water baptism "works", because of the false doctrine advising people to just sit on their hands and be saved.

In regard to justification they are works insofar as they contribute NOTHING toward justification (the imputation of God's righteousness). That is received entirely by believing in your heart that the blood of Christ is the sacrifice that God accepts and approves of for the forgiveness of sin. If you think you have to do rituals and/or works to receive the imputation of God's righteousness you are serving the damnable works gospel that Paul says can not justify.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Even believing is a "work" to some.

But it's not among the works that can not justify. It is clearly contrasted with the works that can not justify, and which no man can boast about.