Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Hopeful]

Galatians 5:17

Good verse for those led by the flesh.
Now, lets look at the next verse..."But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." (Gal 5:18)
The "But" means the previous verse dealt with those led by the flesh.
It is those walking in the flesh who cannot do 5:17's things of the Spirit.

 

[Hopeful]

But that is not what the scripture teaches.

Yes it does teach that.
God is light, and there is no sin in Him.
So if we are walking in Him, (in the light), there can be no sin in us either.
Those walking in God have already been cleansed of sin by the blood of His Son.

That is what your “doctrine” teaches, not scripture.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Read it as two sentences.
If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with God.
And the blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, cleanseth us of all sin.
It is a second thought.

The same people that walk in the light, are the same people that His blood cleanses from all sin.

First the cleansing, then the walk.
Otherwise, there IS sin in God.
Can that be?

In fact, the requirement for having our sin cleansed is walking in the light.

The ability to walk in God is the result of the cleansing.

This is where your “sinless perfection“ doctrine is destroyed.

Then you really don't believe verse 7.
It says ALL our sin is cleansed by the blood of Jesus.
If ALL of our sins have been washed away, aren't we sinless?
Why don't you believe that?

Then to top it off, the next verse says —
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Folks in the dark, the sinners, cannot say they have no sin.
Neither can they say they have fellowship with God.
Those walking in God can say both.

 

[donadams]

Post 1094 quotes the CCC.
Can't get more Catholic than that!
Catechism of the Catholic Church
(see the last paragraph)

Sorry but I don’t cotton to the modernist Vatican 2 crowd either, thanks, the catechism of the council of Trent or the catechism of Pius X
Thanks

 

[JLB]

Yes it does teach that.
God is light, and there is no sin in Him.
So if we are walking in Him, (in the light), there can be no sin in us either.
Those walking in God have already been cleansed of sin by the blood of His Son.

Here is what the scriptures teach.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8


Here is what the scriptures teach.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


Those who walk in the light are cleansed by the blood of Jesus.


Here is what the scripture teaches.


He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11


The scripture defines what remaining in the light is.

• He who loves his brother abides in the light,

The scripture defines what walking in darkness is.

• he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness

Walking in or remaining in the light is not defined as sinless.

Walking in the light is not defined by scripture as sinless but is defined as loving our neighbor.



So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” Luke 10:34-37


Was this Samaritan “sinless” or did he express love?




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is those walking in the flesh who cannot do 5:17's things of the Spirit.

You seem oblivious to the fact that in Galatians 5:17 the ones who don't do what they want to do have the Spirit. Paul is talking about born again people not doing what they want because of the flesh. The flesh you insist born again people don't have. Are you purposely ignoring that's what the verse says?

 

[Hopeful]

Here is what the scriptures teach.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Absolutely true, if walking in darkness.
Sinners can't honestly say they have no sin.

Here is what the scriptures teach.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Thank God for making a way to be able to walk in the light/God.
That way is by first confessing past sins and then getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins: whereby we can be washed of past sins.

Those who walk in the light are cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Have been cleansed, as there is no sin in the light.
It is written..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)

Here is what the scripture teaches.
He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11
The scripture defines what remaining in the light is.

• He who loves his brother abides in the light,

The scripture defines what walking in darkness is.

• he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness

Walking in or remaining in the light is not defined as sinless.

Please supply one sin that is love?

Walking in the light is not defined by scripture as sinless but is defined as loving our neighbor.

Name some loving that is sin?
Are you saying there is sin in God/light?

So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” Luke 10:34-37
Was this Samaritan “sinless” or did he express love?

Love.
Go and do likewise.

 

[Hopeful]

You seem oblivious to the fact that in Galatians 5:17 the ones who don't do what they want to do have the Spirit. Paul is talking about born again people not doing what they want because of the flesh. The flesh you insist born again people don't have. Are you purposely ignoring that's what the verse says?

Sorry you feel that those with the power of God in them are subject to the now dead skin and bones.
16"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Gal 5:16,18,24-25)

Those walking in the Spirit have a Spirit that opposes the "flesh".

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry but I don’t cotton to the modernist Vatican 2 crowd either, thanks, the catechism of the council of Trent or the catechism of Pius X
Thanks

What do you go by?
You could PM if you prefer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry you feel that those with the power of God in them are subject to the now dead skin and bones.
16"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Gal 5:16,18,24-25)

Those walking in the Spirit have a Spirit that opposes the "flesh".

Hi H,
We've been down this road and I don't want to interject too much....
But I do need to say that Galatians 5 is addressed to believers.

Then one could discuss what it means.
But to whom it's addressed cannot be denied.

Anyway, why is that so important?
Paul is instructing believers.
Do you deny that we need instruction?

 

[JLB]

Absolutely true, if walking in darkness.
Sinners can't honestly say they have no sin.

Unfortunatly for your "theory" John uses the pronouns of "we" and "us" not "they", in which he includes contextually himself, as one who walks in the light, and is cleansed of sin.

You have deceitfully changed the pronoun to "they".

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7-9

The very same ones (John and the Christians he is writing to) who walk in the light as He is in the light, are the same ones who are cleansed from sin, and are the very same ones who have sin (which dwells in our flesh, warring against the Spirit within our inner man) and must learn to walk according to the Spirit.

Of course if we should sin, we can confess our sin and He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Thank God for making a way to be able to walk in the light/God.

Walking in the light is walking in love.

If the scripture stated that walking in the light means we are perfectly sinless the it would have stated as such.

Walking in darkness is walking in hate.

But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 2:11



JLB

 

[JLB]

Have been cleansed, as there is no sin in the light.
It is written..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

Yes, God is love.

Walking in darkness is hate.

But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 2:11


JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Hi H,
We've been down this road and I don't want to interject too much....
But I do need to say that Galatians 5 is addressed to believers.

Then one could discuss what it means.
But to whom it's addressed cannot be denied.

Anyway, why is that so important?
Paul is instructing believers.
Do you deny that we need instruction?

Yes, it is addressed to believers, but it is about two different kinds of life.
One walked in the Spirit juxtaposed with one walked in the "flesh".
One walked in unison of Jew and Gentile, juxtaposed with a walk of division between them.
One walked in the Law, juxtaposed with a life walked in the Spirit by faith.
Not every part of most epistles applies to every convert.

Like 1 John 1, wherein John addresses those who walk in the light, which is God, juxtaposed with those who walk in darkness, which is sin.

We do need instruction.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry you feel that those with the power of God in them are subject to the now dead skin and bones.

Only if the believer makes himself subject to the desires of the flesh.

 

[Hopeful]

Unfortunatly for your "theory" John uses the pronouns of "we" and "us" not "they", in which he includes contextually himself, as one who walks in the light, and is cleansed of sin.

He also used the word "IF".
"IF" we walk in darkness, juxtaposed with "IF" we walk in the light.
The outcome of each walk is very different.

You have deceitfully changed the pronoun to "they".
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7-9
The very same ones (John and the Christians he is writing to) who walk in the light as He is in the light, are the same ones who are cleansed from sin, and are the very same ones who have sin (which dwells in our flesh, warring against the Spirit within our inner man) and must learn to walk according to the Spirit.
Of course if we should sin, we can confess our sin and He is faithful to forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You seem to be unaware of these scriptures that, hopefully, will shake you from such an abysmal belief as sin dwelling in your skin and bones.
It is written...Col 2:9-11,13..."For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
Col 3:9-10..."Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
Ephesians 1:7..."In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
Eph 1:22-23..."And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."
Eph 2:5-6..."Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
Eph 3:19..."And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."
Eph 4:6..."One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Eph 4:22-24..."That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Eph 5:8..."For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:"
Eph 5:26-27..."That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
Eph 5:30-32..."For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."
Gal 3:27..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Not one of those scriptures even hints at something nefarious lurking in the body of the new creature.

 

[Hopeful]

Walking in the light is walking in love.
If the scripture stated that walking in the light means we are perfectly sinless the it would have stated as such.

It is written..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
Darkness, which there isn't any of in God, is sin, according to Pro 4:19.

Walking in darkness is walking in hate.
But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 2:11

Those are the folks who cannot say they have no sin.
But if we walk in God, the light, there can be no sin/darkness in us.
Thanks be to God

 

[Hopeful]

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
Yes, God is love.
Walking in darkness is hate.
But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 2:11

Looks like you've got it !
Walk in love and there will be no more hate in you.

 

[Hopeful]

Only if the believer makes himself subject to the desires of the flesh.

Only unbelievers will do such a horrible thing.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's another point I wanted to make. We're talking about the grace of God in justification. Paul says a person is reckoned righteous the same way Abraham was, by faith in the promised son apart from works. The Catholic church says righteousness is reckoned to a person by faith and works.

Hi Jethro, Can't remember if I replied to the above.
I don't know where the CC states that justification is obtained by works...
It states only faith.
If you want to believe the opposite, you can I guess.
Don't know how else to say it.

CCC 1992
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:


But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know where the CC states that justification is obtained by works...
It states only faith.

When you talk to Catholics they tell you that faith is work. And so salvation is by faith and works. It's a tricky little twist of what I consider to be a very deceitful religion. I discovered by talking to Catholics how it is that we Protestants have put up with them as if they believe the essential truths we do. They do not.