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Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

Hopeful said:
Can't you see that those in the Spirit cannot do the things of the flesh and those in the flesh cannot do the things of the Spirit?
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That’s not what the passage Says. You’re purposely ignoring that it says you DON’T do what you want to do because of the force of the flesh that opposes the Spirit within you, and vice verse. Plainly worded, plainly stated. It’s impossible to not see, and impossible to honestly ignore.
 
Hopeful said:
"Jesus died to save sheep and goats.
But not us from the enemy worse than Rome."
Is that really your opinion?

Find one that fits.

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4)
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I do believe we have all escaped the corruption that is in the world.

And the verse I repeat to you and which you should consider is this one:

John 20:23 Jesus said to the Apostles:
If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them,
if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.

Jesus knew the nature of man.
Jesus knew what He was declaring.
If the Apostles forgave the sins of any man, they would be forgiven.
Jesus also told them to baptize in His name.

So, plainly, a person can be baptized and still sin and still need forgiveness.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Your numbers are so few in number it amounts to insignificance.
Even in Israel in Elijah's day there were 7,000 who had not bowed their knee to Baal. That's a significant number compared to the size of Israel. So, considering the population of the world today your sinless perfection movement is going to have to get a lot bigger before anyone can consider it a legitimate move of God. 'Taint gonna happen.
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The body of Christ is far from insignificance.
I am reminded of David and Goliath.
 
Hopeful said:
The body of Christ is far from insignificance.
I am reminded of David and Goliath.
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When your sinless perfection movement gets to the same ratio as the remnant of Israel to the population of Israel in Elijah’s day let me know. Where you at right now, a couple hundred adherents? And you say this thing as been around for 2000 years?
 
wondering said:
I do believe we have all escaped the corruption that is in the world.

And the verse I repeat to you and which you should consider is this one:

John 20:23 Jesus said to the Apostles:
If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them,
if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.

Jesus knew the nature of man.
Jesus knew what He was declaring.
If the Apostles forgave the sins of any man, they would be forgiven.
Jesus also told them to baptize in His name.

So, plainly, a person can be baptized and still sin and still need forgiveness.
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Of course! The difference is that Christians are not slaves to sinful behavior, as Paul clearly writes in Romans 7.
 
wondering said:
What does repent mean?
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That depends on what one is repenting of.
Converts repent of sin.
wondering said:
Baptism washes away old sins.
At the moment you're perfectly sinless.
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Correct, so they can say they have no sin !
Continuing on in the light/God will allow one to say it still in five or ten or fifty years too.
wondering said:
What makes YOU know if someone has the Holy Spirit or not?
Whether or not they sin?
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That is the easiest way.
It may be the only way.
wondering said:
As I've said, saying one doesn't sin, is a sin.
It's the sin of pride.
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Are you filled with pride for the words you wrote above where you said "At that moment you're perfectly sinless." ?
It is God I am proud of, as He made freedom from sin, the devil, and death possible.
wondering said:
Proverbs 27:2
2Let another praise you, and not your own mouth;
A stranger, and not your own lips.
Luke 18:9-14
9Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: 10“Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector.
11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayerb: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector!
12I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’
13“But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’
14I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Don't be like the Pharisee.
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Be like the tax collector.
Sorrow unto repentance from sins.
It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)
Too many today repent of their repentance from sin.
They shall suffer the second death.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The important thing is that you realize it is still there and that you could walk in it, being vigilant to not walk in it.
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What is still there?
My skin and bones?
OK, but they are now His body to do with as He sees fit. (Gal 2:20)
Or are you writing about the fleshly/worldly oriented mind?
That is long gone, thanks be to God.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The Spirit is not contrary to skin and bones. It is contrary to the corrupt desires of the flesh. Which you still have and which is in opposition to the Spirit in you ‘so that you don’t do what you want’ Galatians 5:17.
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I don't have it anymore.
I am a new creature, thanks be to God !
My skin and bones are now the temple of the Holt Spirit, and are not going to desire to sin.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
That’s not what the passage Says. You’re purposely ignoring that it says you DON’T do what you want to do because of the force of the flesh that opposes the Spirit within you, and vice verse. Plainly worded, plainly stated. It’s impossible to not see, and impossible to honestly ignore.
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It sure is saying that.
You give all the credit to the flesh and none to the Spirit.
By saying the flesh keeps you from doing what the Spirit wants you must also say the Spirit will not allow you to do the things the flesh wants.
It works both ways !
Thanks be to God !!!!
 
wondering said:
I do believe we have all escaped the corruption that is in the world.

And the verse I repeat to you and which you should consider is this one:

John 20:23 Jesus said to the Apostles:
If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them,
if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.

Jesus knew the nature of man.
Jesus knew what He was declaring.
If the Apostles forgave the sins of any man, they would be forgiven.
Click to expand...
So true.
But remember, He was still talking to men who walked in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
That wouldn't be possible till after His resurrection.
wondering said:
Jesus also told them to baptize in His name.

So, plainly, a person can be baptized and still sin and still need forgiveness.
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I cannot see how you could jump from A to Z?
If the past sins are forgiven at baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38), what makes you think their repentances will be automatically false?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
When your sinless perfection movement gets to the same ratio as the remnant of Israel to the population of Israel in Elijah’s day let me know. Where you at right now, a couple hundred adherents? And you say this thing as been around for 2000 years?
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It is Jesus "sinless movement".
We could own all of France and the entire African mainland and you still would prefer your accommodations for sin.
Like the catholics.
 
Hopeful said:
It sure is saying that.
You give all the credit to the flesh and none to the Spirit.
By saying the flesh keeps you from doing what the Spirit wants you must also say the Spirit will not allow you to do the things the flesh wants.
It works both ways !
Thanks be to God !!!!
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It does work both ways. I never said otherwise.
 
Hopeful said:
It is Jesus "sinless movement".
We could own all of France and the entire African mainland and you still would prefer your accommodations for sin.
Like the catholics.
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I prefer the Bible. I showed you the plain words of scripture that make it impossible for your sinless doctrine to be true and you knowingly rejected them. You are sinning. You have to give an account to God for your willing refusal to acknowledge the truth and instead believe a lie. Some things are open for honest debate. This is not one of them.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
YOUR righteous, faithful deeds.

Though they now give lip service to being justified, right now, solely by receiving, through faith, the finished work of Christ completed on your behalf.
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CCC paragraph 160 to 163

The freedom of faith



160 To be human, "man's response to God by faith must be free, and. . . therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act."39 "God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced. . . This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus."40 Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. "For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom. . . grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself."41



The necessity of faith



161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43



Perseverance in faith



162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith."44 To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;45 it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.46



Faith - the beginning of eternal life



163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God "face to face", "as he is".47 So faith is already the beginning of eternal life:



When we contemplate the blessings of faith even now, as if gazing at a reflection in a mirror, it is as if we already possessed the wonderful things which our faith assures us we shall one day enjoy.48
 
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