Jethro Bodine
Member
Note what I have emboldened in red.
Justification is something Catholics are working faithfully toward, not something they already have(?)
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Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?
- Thread starter Pass-A-Gospel-Tract
- Start date
Justification is something Catholics are working faithfully toward, not something they already have(?)
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"43
What's wrong with the above?
WITHOUT FAITH no one has ever attained justification.
We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH....
We are JUSTIFIED by grace through FAITH...
Without faith we cannot be saved - no one has ever attained justification.
(works don't save).
And only if we endure till the end will we be finally saved....
a person can fall away from the faith before death.
We must endure to the end, you and I both believe this.
Jethro Bodine
Member
'Attained'. That's what's wrong with it.
Catholics view enduring to the end as a work of faith that one must do in order to be justified (become righteous).
Protestants view it as enduring to the end in a justification/righteousness we already have and are resting in, not trying to 'attain' by working towards it in faith.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, we both believe that.
We Protestants believe that we can fall away from a justification/righteousness we already have as a gift of God's grace.
Catholics believe they can fall away from the task of trying to attain a justification/righteousness that is gradually being infused in them through the obedience of their faithful works and which they will receive in the end.
This is the glaring difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. An important and very serious difference that requires us to maintain a stark line of demarcation between us. They deceptively try to make Protestants think we're all just the same in this matter of justification. We are not. Luther rebelled against the Catholic church for very good reasons.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I do understand what you mean.
Mungo
Member
This is all false.
And I'm not going to waste time arguing with you.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
It's unfortunate the other member just can't understand.
I also must stop trying...
So much misunderstanding...
How about explaining it to the rest of us? What is false about what he wrote?
Jethro Bodine
Member
You don't need to argue with me. You just need to show when the Catholic church adopted Luther's revelation of justification by faith. Because you don't seem to realize that by resisting what I'm posting about what I say the Catholic church believes you effectively remove the difference between Luther and the Catholic church about justification that caused him to rebel against it.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, Mungo. Just politely correct what I wrote about what the Catholic church believes about justification. Educate us.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Will you believe Mungo if he does?
No.
So I doubt he'll be doing this.
I posted OFFICIAL CC teaching.
Why not accept that instead of a poster's explanation?
(which Mungo would do very well, BTW).
jaybo understood what I posted from the CCC and found nothing wrong with it.
And he's MUCH MORE LIBERAL in his theology than you or I are.
You just can't accept it Jethro.
That's it. I also am going to stop.
Pass-A-Gospel-Tract said,
"Answer: James 2:24 is not for the Christian Church, that's the solution, it's for Tribulation Jews! - Dr. Gene Kim[/QUOTE\]
I disagree, James says that the brothers are making distinctions, preferring the rich above the poor. But he says, is it not true that “God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom”? Are not the rich oppressors? The brothers should practice the kingly law, “You must love your neighbor as yourself,” and should shun favoritism. Let them also practice mercy, for as regards the Law, whoever offends in one point offends in all. Faith without works is meaningless, as is telling a needy brother or sister to “keep warm and well fed” without giving practical aid. Can faith be shown apart from works? Was not Abraham’s faith perfected by his works in offering Isaac on the altar? Likewise, Rahab the harlot was “declared righteous by works.” So faith without works is dead.(James 2:5,8,16,19,25)
Works of the Mosaic Law, which included such things as sacrificial offerings, purifications, and circumcision, did not make a person righteous. (Romans 3:20; 4:1-10; Galatians 3:2) Yet, the disciple James, who is not discussing works of Mosaic Law, says “a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone” (Jas 2:24), for there must be practical works that demonstrate one’s faith, giving proof of it (Compare
Matthew 7:21-27; Ephesians 2:8-10; James 1:27; 2:14-17; 4:4) For example, Abraham had works that proved his faith, such as his willingness to offer up Isaac. Rahab also proved her faith by her works of hiding the Israelite spies.(Hebrew 11:17-19; James 2:21-25)
So all of us today right now in this wicked world we're living in have to show that we have the faith of Abraham and Rehab. Today right now we all must love God so much that we exercise faith in him. This does apply to the Christian Church.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
The solution is that James is using the word JUSTIFICATION in a different way than we're used to today.
There is no conflict in the NT.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You're not being fair with me.
None of you wants to explain how what you say differs from Luther's teachings.
It appears the Catholic church has adopted Luther's revelations about justification.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
OK.
Let's say that the church has accepted Luther's version of justification.
The CC cannot change dogma --- but it can change doctrine/teaching.
Luther was 500 years ago, the Council of Trent was also 500 years ago.
Things have changed since then.
Until 1919 (I think, but it's close) divorced persons were not allowed to Mass!
Maybe the following will clarify:
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ)
Five Christian World Communions working together to bring the gospel to contemporary society The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) was a historic agreement signed by Lutherans and Catholics in 1999, effectively resolving one of the key theological conflicts of the...
20th Anniversary Edition
The “works” described in James 2:21 is not good works, or the works of the law or works that earn a wage.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22
The work that James is referring to is obedience (the obedience of faith), which is the principle of faith that God has called all nation to.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
Obedience to the word of faith (the word from God by which we receive faith) is necessary to make “faith” complete, as well as active or alive and able to produce the intended divine result, otherwise faith without the corresponding action of obedience remains dormant, or dead.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
Contextually the word “works” = obedience (obedience of faith)
The biblical word “believe” Carrie’s the meaning of commit, trust and obey.
This is why we see the phrase ”obeying the Gospel”.
If we “believe” the Gospel we will obey the Gospel.
Believing without obeying is what demons do.
They believe Jesus is Lord, but they continue to obey Satan as their Lord.
Examples of the obedience of faith:
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8
This account of Abraham is mentioned three times in the Bible and each time we can glean from it.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8
This example of Abraham demonstrates the principle of justification by faith through obedience; the obedience of faith.
If Abraham believed God when He called, by never left to go out, then he would never have been justified.
No one is justified by disobedience.
JLB
Yes if you love the True God you will exercise faith in him. Because Abraham was willing to offer up his son when God told Abraham at Genesis 22:2 which says, "Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and travel to the land of Mo·riʹah and offer him up there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I will designate to you.”
So yes Abraham was obedient to the true God because of the love he had for God. Abraham knew that not only did he love the True God but the true God loved him, so because of that, Abraham knew that if he did sacrifice his son Isaac, the True God would resurrect his son to fulfill that promise to Abraham that the seed would come through Isaac.
Amen. He demonstrated his love for God by his obedience; the obedience of faith.
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why have some Catholics not known this?
What's the difference between dogma and doctrine/teaching?
Jethro Bodine
Member
There is no work at all that you can do to become righteous (justified) before God. James is not saying Abraham was made righteous by works of faith, or any other works. He's saying Abraham was shown to be righteous by his works. That is another definition of 'justified'.
James is using one definition of justified, and Paul is using another. That is why it looks like they are in contradiction to each other. The difference is not in what kind of works each is talking about. Paul is talking about becoming righteous by faith (justified) apart from works. James is talking about being shown to be righteous (justified) by works. The word 'justified' is used to describe, both, becoming righteous, and being shown to be righteous. Context determines which definition is being used.