Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Hopeful]

If you have to grow into the qualities of love, and self-control, for example, then that means you have not been perfect in those things. You're sinning.

Why?
If I already have those qualities, my growth is only in the manifesting of them.

And until you bring forth that fruit you are sinning. You are fruitless. You can't deny this., he will be bringing forth the fruit of tht seed.

If one alleges he is a new creature, in Christ, reborn of Gods seed, a temple of the Holy Ghost, he will be bringing forth the fruit of Gods seed.
If he isn't bringing forth the fruit of God's seed, he is none of the above.

If you have to have more fruit that means you've sinned somewhere along the line by not having the fruit you should have had. You're sinning. It means you're not the perfect and complete person you claim you are from the beginning.

Poor attempt at guilting.
As you did start with "IF" you can take the exhortation to your self.

 

[Hopeful]

Are you? Only one person was sinless, according to the Bible.

Which one?
Enoch?
Samuel?
Elijah?
John the Baptist?
Or Jesus, our Savior and role model?
To that list we can now gratefully add the names of every faithful saint for the last 2000 years.

 

[Hopeful]

As long as they keep believing in the blood of Christ that forgives their sin they will indeed remain righteous in God's sight.

The Lord's blood will be worth nothing to them, if they don't cease from sinning.

You think that because you don't know that a person becomes righteous and remains righteous by having their sin forgiven, not by ceasing to act unrighteously.

They go hand-in-hand.

But it is certainly true that the person who goes backward to an unrepentant, willful life of purposeful sin show that they no longer believe in the blood of Christ and lose the righteousness of God they had when they did believe in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

Agreed.
Thanks be to God for providing he ways and means of retaining the righteous life style of the faithful !

 

[Hopeful]

Am I 100% sinless, perfect and complete in behavior?
No, I'm growing up into that.

But I am 100% sinless and perfect and complete, legally speaking, because every time I sin the blood of Christ I believe and trust in, and which is interceding for me on the altar in heaven, cleanses it away leaving and so no sin guilt remains upon which a charge of unrighteousness can be made. Romans 8:33-34

33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.

Hopeful needs to get this truth down inside of him so he can stop kidding himself that he's 100% sinless out of fear of being declared unrighteous and not born again. As long as he believes in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of his sin when he commits it he remains righteous in God's sight, not because he didn't sin, but because God forgives his sin wiping away the record of that unrighteousness. When God forgives there is no sin remaining upon which to be declared unrighteous.

"Legal" sin...hmmm.

 

[Hopeful]

My spirit is.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

Is your body controlling your spirit?
It is written..."For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph 5:30)
His body.
Not yours anymore... if it has been crucified, circumcised, cast away, and destroyed.

 

[Hopeful]

Dude, come on, just read Galatians 5:17 with honesty.
People with the Spirit sin because of the opposition of the flesh.
You can't honestly deny it says that.

Your misinterpretation of that verse precludes your understanding Gal 5:16 and Gal 5:24.
Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

[Hopeful]

Because the flesh is opposed to the Spirit so that you don't do what you want! Galatians 5:17

But the Spirit is opposed to the flesh, so you can't do what the flesh wants !

 

[Hopeful]

No.

Is He going to leave us powerless in our efforts to obey Him perfectly?

Yes.
And, as children, we spend a lifetime learning to use it as we grow up into the stature of Christ.

Growth in grace and knowledge are part-and-parcel of being a Christian.
So are resisting temptation and helping the needy.
And praying and studying.

 

[JLB]

Is your body controlling your spirit?
It is written..."For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph 5:30)
His body.
Not yours anymore... if it has been crucified, circumcised, cast away, and destroyed.

We are indeed members of the body of Christ.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1 Corinthians 12:13


Your flesh is opposed to the Spirit that dwells within you.

We are called to walk, to live our life, according to the Spirit rather than walking according to our flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

• For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;

• so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Why does our flesh lust against the Spirit, if it is sinless as you claim?


Here are some of the works or manifestations of the flesh:

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are:

adultery,
fornication,
uncleanness,
lewdness,
idolatry,
sorcery,
hatred,
contentions,
jealousies,
outbursts of wrath,
selfish ambitions,
dissensions,
heresies,
envy,
murders,
drunkenness,
revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


Do you believe these manifestations of the flesh are works of sin or of righteousness?




JLB

 

[JLB]

my relationship with God exists because of Hs mercy, grace, and grace.
But His mercy included the ways and means of continuing on in the light.
How come your religion didn't give you that side of the "story"?

Here is the side of the story the apostle John gives us to grow —

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


If we sin, we can confess our sin, and He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Does your religion teach this?




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Legal" sin...hmmm.

I knew you wouldn't be able to understand how the believer who sins is righteous in God's sight despite his sin.

You don't get it because you don't know, and, thus, don't believe that the believer's sin is forgiven the moment he commits it by the blood he believes in.. That's how the sinning saint is always and continually righteous before God.

You think the believer has to be sinless to be righteous before God. You serve a works justification gospel.The gospel Paul says can not justify you. It is the gospel of the Pharisee who not only thinks sinless perfection is how one is justified, but who is blind to the fact that he is not the sinless person he thinks he is.

 

[Hopeful]

We are indeed members of the body of Christ.

Then there can be no sin in it.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1 Corinthians 12:13

Your flesh is opposed to the Spirit that dwells within you.

My flesh has no power to be opposed to anything, as it was crucified with Christ.
Destroyed.
Circumcised.
Cast away.
The Spirit opposes everything of the "flesh", and the Spirit is way more powerful than skin and bones or a "fleshy" oriented mind.

We are called to walk, to live our life, according to the Spirit rather than walking according to our flesh.

And the exhortation is not impossible to accomplish...thanks be to God !

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17

• For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;
• so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Why give credit to the flush's lust against the Spirit?
The flesh is powerless.

Why does our flesh lust against the Spirit, if it is sinless as you claim?

Paul states the obvious.
As long as we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfil the lusts of the now dead "flesh". (Gal 5:16)

Here are some of the works or manifestations of the flesh:
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are:
adultery,
fornication,
uncleanness,
lewdness,
idolatry,
sorcery,
hatred,
contentions,
jealousies,
outbursts of wrath,
selfish ambitions,
dissensions,
heresies,
envy,
murders,
drunkenness,
revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Do you believe these manifestations of the flesh are works of sin or of righteousness?

They are not "works of sin", they are sin.
I am sure glad we don't have to do any of them anymore.
Praise be to God !!

 

[Hopeful]

Here is the side of the story the apostle John gives us to grow —
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we sin, we can confess our sin, and He will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Does your religion teach this?

Yes, it does.
But it also teaches that it is those walking in darkness of whom John is writing.
Darkness is sin. (Pro 4:19)
Sinners must confess before they receive the washing of the blood of Christ at their baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins...so they can then walk in the light...which is God...in whom is no sin.

 

[Hopeful]

I knew you wouldn't be able to understand how the believer who sins is righteous in God's sight despite his sin.

You don't get it because you don't know, and, thus, don't believe that the believer's sin is forgiven the moment he commits it by the blood he believes in.. That's how the sinning saint is always and continually righteous before God.

You think the believer has to be sinless to be righteous before God. You serve a works justification gospel.The gospel Paul says can not justify you. It is the gospel of the Pharisee who not only thinks sinless perfection is how one is justified, but who is blind to the fact that he is not the sinless person he thinks he is.

Believers don't sin.
They know they risk too much for fleeting pleasure.

 

[JLB]

Then there can be no sin in it.

The body of Christ as in people.

 

[JLB]

Believers don't sin.
They know they risk too much for fleeting pleasure.

Only through much denial of scripture can anyone make such a statement.

 

[JLB]

Darkness is sin. (Pro 4:19)

Sorry but you have to use verses in context.


He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:10-11


As we see, a Christian can indeed hate his brother. Sin.


JLB

 

[JLB]

My flesh has no power to be opposed to anything, as it was crucified with Christ.
Destroyed.
Circumcised.
Cast away.
The Spirit opposes everything of the "flesh", and the Spirit is way more powerful than skin and bones or a "fleshy" oriented mind.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17


Your flesh opposes the Spirit according to scripture.


Why would “sinless” flesh oppose the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believers don't sin.
They know they risk too much for fleeting pleasure.

In your religion you're wondering if you're a true believer or not by whether or not you make it to the end without sinning. But we, as children of God, are forgiven by God when we sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Growth in grace and knowledge are part-and-parcel of being a Christian.

Don't change the passage. It says growth in self-control, love, perseverance, brotherly kindness and godliness. The believer growing up into these qualities signifies that they are not 100% perfect and complete in these things and needs to grow up into them. IOW, they are sinning, but less and less as they grow up. You can't just decide to change what the passage says to accommodate your theology. You need to start letting your theology accommodate the Bible.


5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11


While our calling and election is made sure by growing in these things, your religion's calling and election can never be sure because you say you know if you're really called and elected by whether or not you never sin in this lifetime. So you have to wait until your lifetime is over to see if you're really called and elected. Which we can see from the passage is not how one knows they are called and elected. But why let scripture get in the way of a preconceived theology, right?