Does man have free will to choose salvation?

[electedbyHim]

As I said, you do not understand what I believe.

When you read my explanation you try to put it in a context of what you already know. This is new.

What I said isn't said by others. It resolves the paradox of predestination and free will.

No one has done that before. So until you stop trying to make it Calvinist, or Arminiam, you won't understand it has elements of both.

What you have written (your beliefs( are very confusing.

Do you really blame me for not understanding you?

So your making your own doctrine based on Eisigesis.

I asked you before what the Biblical definition of free will is and you never stated that.

Does anyone really have free will?

One is either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What you have written (your beliefs( are very confusing.

Do you really blame me for not understanding you?

So your making your own doctrine based on Eisigesis.

I asked you before what the Biblical definition of free will is and you never stated that.

Does anyone really have free will?

One is either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ.

As I said, you make no effort to understand what I believe. I have explained my belief about free will, often and repeatedly.

As you won't try to understand my belief, there is little profit in repeating the explanation.

 

[electedbyHim]

As I said, you make no effort to understand what I believe. I have explained my belief about free will, often and repeatedly.

As you won't try to understand my belief, there is little profit in repeating the explanation.

Because what you are posting is confusing.

You put the blame on me because I do not understand what you are trying to convey.

From post# 449

The children of the devil will act wickedly and do wicked things. Its who they are, but that is their free will choice. As for the "clueless", some of them will be saved, some will backslide and be lost. Once one of them is saved, they cannnot lose their salvation. They are equal to the Elect.

This says thats some will lose their salvation die to backsliding.

It also says that there others beside the elect who god will saved.

How is any of this Biblical.

Do you believe in reprobation?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Because what you are posting is confusing.

You put the blame on me because I do not understand what you are trying to convey.

From post# 449

This says thats some will lose their salvation die to backsliding.

It also says that there others beside the elect who god will saved.

How is any of this Biblical.

Do you believe in reprobation?

Can't you watch the video a couple of times? Is that too much to ask?

 

[electedbyHim]

Can't you watch the video a couple of times? Is that too much to ask?

I did watch your video and found that it is not grounded in Scripture.

However...

In Christian theology, the tripartite view (trichotomy) posits that humanity consists of three distinct components: body, spirit, and soul. This perspective contrasts with the bipartite view (dichotomy), which considers soul and spirit as interchangeable terms for a single entity, the spiritual soul.

Your theology of the tripartite view consists of Elect, middlites and reprobate.

What made you decide to create a new doctrine?

Are you not adding to God's written word?

 

[brightfame52]

Hopeful 2

"You must be born again": sounds like something every man must do to be saved.

From Gospel writer,

(3) The Necessity of the New Birth - "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (Jno. 3:7). Regeneration is necessary because people are by nature totally depraved. Without the new birth, no one will be saved. Dei, the Greek word translated "must," indicates logical necessity. By the use of such a strong term, Jesus indicates that regeneration is essential, imperative, and absolutely necessary for salvation. It is a vital link in the chain of sovereign grace. Some Bible students have erroneously concluded, however, that because the word dei refers to logical necessity, it also expresses the idea of human responsibility. In other words, they think that Jesus is suggesting that Nicodemus take personal responsibility for his own new birth. Notice however, that Jesus did not tell Nicodemus to do anything in order to be born again. He did not instruct him to make a decision or even to repent and believe the gospel. "Ye must be born again" is simply a statement of fact, not a command to be obeyed. It is a declarative, not an imperative, sentence.

Primitive Baptist Article Details | Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling

 

[Alfred Persson]

I did watch your video and found that it is not grounded in Scripture.

However...

In Christian theology, the tripartite view (trichotomy) posits that humanity consists of three distinct components: body, spirit, and soul. This perspective contrasts with the bipartite view (dichotomy), which considers soul and spirit as interchangeable terms for a single entity, the spiritual soul.

Your theology of the tripartite view consists of Elect, middlites and reprobate.

What made you decide to create a new doctrine?

Are you not adding to God's written word?

Watch it a few more times, you'll get it eventually

 

[electedbyHim]

Ummmm, ok.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Ummmm, ok.

Watch it and review my explanation in Post #449

Are you suggesting that the Sovereign God and Lord Jesus Christ chose to elect Alfred Persson to salvation before the foundations of the world because He knew you would love Him?

I am suggesting God knew this fallen world would prevent me from being saved, that is why He predestined I would not be lost.

This doesn't mean God foreknew to know, He is omniscient and already knew all things BEFORE He created:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ)

Our salvation is NOT based on "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". The moment God pondered creating all things, everything that would happen because of that creation was known to Him, including TWO VERSIONS of us: 1)The unfallen version; 2)The fallen version we are now.

So in the Omniscience of God, when He contemplated creating, the "unfallen version" of us sprang into existence. As God looked upon them communicating knowledge of Himself and His love for them, 1)some responded by loving Him back; 2)Others just blinked their eyes clueless wondering what would happen next; 3)Others recoiled from Him, hating the light.

At this point in time these unfallen versions don't exist, and they never will because the fall happened. What came into existence is the fallen version of us we are today.

God selected the unfallen versions of those who loved Him, and specially knew them in His foreknowledge. Romans 11:2 implies God developed a special relationship with these in His foreknowledge.

This is separate from knowing how Satan would lead Adam to fall, and most of these would be lost in a fallen world.

God had a dilemma. He wanted to create so these who loved Him back, could come into existence but most of them would be eternally lost because of this fallen world. Therefore, to gurantee NONE of them be lost, He predestines them to be justified and glorified in Christ.

This predestintion is NOT based on what the fallen versions of them do now. Their salvation is according to God's good purpose and will. Their calling is by His grace, not their works or "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". In the fallen realm many of these did not have any faith or love for God, they were destroyed by the fallen realm.

Only these lovers of God are predestined unto salvation, NOT the other two classes of people, the clueless and the wicked.

He does not predestine them for anything. They can choose to be saved in the fallen realm, and join the elect.

God's good purpose and will is that those who love God not be lost because this fallen realm's seductive power of sin, all things will work together for thier good, their ultimate salvation.

So God predestined me to be saved BECAUSE I would otherwise be lost. This is unmerited, I did nothing to deserve it. My calling was according to His good purpose and will I not be lost.

As the opportunity for salvation is equally available to everyone, whosoever believes in Jesus will be saved. God has not shown anyone partiality, everyone including the Elect are saved through faith in Christ. Everyone can be saved but won't be. The children of the devil will act wickedly and do wicked things. Its who they are, but that is their free will choice. As for the "clueless", some of them will be saved, some will backslide and be lost. Once one of them is saved, they cannnot lose their salvation. They are equal to the Elect.

 

[electedbyHim]

Watch it and review my explanation in Post #449

Are you suggesting that the Sovereign God and Lord Jesus Christ chose to elect Alfred Persson to salvation before the foundations of the world because He knew you would love Him?

I am suggesting God knew this fallen world would prevent me from being saved, that is why He predestined I would not be lost.

This doesn't mean God foreknew to know, He is omniscient and already knew all things BEFORE He created:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ)

Our salvation is NOT based on "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". The moment God pondered creating all things, everything that would happen because of that creation was known to Him, including TWO VERSIONS of us: 1)The unfallen version; 2)The fallen version we are now.

So in the Omniscience of God, when He contemplated creating, the "unfallen version" of us sprang into existence. As God looked upon them communicating knowledge of Himself and His love for them, 1)some responded by loving Him back; 2)Others just blinked their eyes clueless wondering what would happen next; 3)Others recoiled from Him, hating the light.

At this point in time these unfallen versions don't exist, and they never will because the fall happened. What came into existence is the fallen version of us we are today.

God selected the unfallen versions of those who loved Him, and specially knew them in His foreknowledge. Romans 11:2 implies God developed a special relationship with these in His foreknowledge.

This is separate from knowing how Satan would lead Adam to fall, and most of these would be lost in a fallen world.

God had a dilemma. He wanted to create so these who loved Him back, could come into existence but most of them would be eternally lost because of this fallen world. Therefore, to gurantee NONE of them be lost, He predestines them to be justified and glorified in Christ.

This predestintion is NOT based on what the fallen versions of them do now. Their salvation is according to God's good purpose and will. Their calling is by His grace, not their works or "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". In the fallen realm many of these did not have any faith or love for God, they were destroyed by the fallen realm.

Only these lovers of God are predestined unto salvation, NOT the other two classes of people, the clueless and the wicked.

He does not predestine them for anything. They can choose to be saved in the fallen realm, and join the elect.

God's good purpose and will is that those who love God not be lost because this fallen realm's seductive power of sin, all things will work together for thier good, their ultimate salvation.

So God predestined me to be saved BECAUSE I would otherwise be lost. This is unmerited, I did nothing to deserve it. My calling was according to His good purpose and will I not be lost.

As the opportunity for salvation is equally available to everyone, whosoever believes in Jesus will be saved. God has not shown anyone partiality, everyone including the Elect are saved through faith in Christ. Everyone can be saved but won't be. The children of the devil will act wickedly and do wicked things. Its who they are, but that is their free will choice. As for the "clueless", some of them will be saved, some will backslide and be lost. Once one of them is saved, they cannnot lose their salvation. They are equal to the Elect.

This is not Biblical

everyone including the Elect are saved through faith in Christ. Everyone can be saved but won't be.

Anyhow, your theology is very confusing.

Back in topic.

Does man have free will to choose salvation?​

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is not Biblical


Anyhow, your theology is very confusing.

Back in topic.

Does man have free will to choose salvation?​

We are done. I'll not answer endlessly answer the same questions. If you can't take the time to read my answers, I'll cease answering. There is no point to continuing, its not a discussion. Monologue away, be my guest.

 

[electedbyHim]

We are done. I'll not answer endlessly answer the same questions. If you can't take the time to read my answers, I'll cease answering. There is no point to continuing, its not a discussion. Monologue away, be my guest.

I not only read you replies, but I watched your video.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

There you go !
Two entities in One !
Both capable of operating independently from the other.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So you reject the Deity of Christ.

No.
Why did you ask that question ?

You reject many truths of the Bible.

I reject all of unconverted man's interpretations of what is truth in the bible.

But rejecting that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh is very telling per 1 John 4:3.

1 John 4:3..."And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."
I don't reject any verse in the bible.

I will no longer reply to you because I will be guilty of participating in your evil deeds.
2 John 1:11

OK, as long as you never forget that the truth can free you from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Again its in the passive voice, its not a command, you are forcing something to be thats not there, thats how false teaching gets started.

"You must be born again" isn't just a suggestion.

 

[reddogs]

I am looking to see what others on this forum believe as to the title of this thread.

This subject will tie back to what one believes if they are born in sin or not, are we born with a corrupt or good nature.

In short, is man basically good and able to choose to be saved.

Of course we can debate as civil Christians, using Biblical and theological positions on the subject.

I will leave out the three positions held in apologetics that include determinism, indeterminism and self-determinism to keep it simple for all of us.

John Piper on free will.

A Definition of ‘Free Will’

Now, where does “free will” fit into this biblical picture of our condition in the world?

To answer that question we need a clear definition of “free will.” It may be helpful to offer three definitions — one from popular usage, one from common biblical usage, and one from the more technical discussion.

A Popular Definition

Popularly, what do most people mean when they wonder about free will? I think most people mean something like this: Our will is free if our preferences and our choices are really our own in such a way that we can justly be held responsible for whether they are good or bad. The opposite would be that our preferences and choices are not our own, but that we are robots or puppets with no meaningful acts of preferring or choosing.

On that definition, free will exists both in fallen and redeemed human beings. For what the fall brought about was not that we cease to be authentic preferring and choosing persons, but that our rebelliousness inclines us to prefer and choose badly. Everyone prefers and chooses in accord with his nature. If the nature is rebellious and insubordinate, as Paul describes in Romans 8:7–8, we prefer and choose accordingly. If our nature is being set free from its rebellion, it begins to prefer and choose what is truly beautiful. In either case, our preferring and choosing are “our own,” and we are “held responsible” for whether they are good or bad.

A Biblical Definition

A second definition of free will reflected in the language of Jesus and Paul is this: The human will is free when it is not in bondage to prefer and choose irrationally. It is free when it is liberated from preferring what is infinitely less preferable than God, and from choosing what will lead to destruction. The opposite of this view would be that such irrational preferences and suicidal choices should be called “freedom.”

Based on this definition, only those who are born again have free will. This is the way Jesus saw the idea of freedom in John 8:32: “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” And this is the way Paul talks about freedom in Romans 6: “Thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness” (Romans 6:17–18).

A Technical Definition

The more technical definition of free will that some people use is this: We have free will if we are ultimately or decisively self-determining, and the only preferences and choices that we can be held accountable for are ones that are ultimately or decisively self-determined. The key word here is ultimate, or decisive. The point is not just that choices are self-determined, but that the self is the ultimate or decisive determiner. The opposite of this definition would be that God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are.

On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. There are great measures of self-determination, as the Bible often shows, but never is man the ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices. When man’s agency and God’s agency are compared, both are real, but God’s is decisive. Yet — and here’s the mystery that causes so many to stumble — God is always decisive in such a way that man’s agency is real, and his responsibility remains.


I personally lean to towards the following quotes.

Bondage of the Will: The view that because of human sinfulness, the human will is bound to act according to its sinful nature and is therefore captive to it, unable to choose to do anything good apart from its liberation by the Holy Spirit.
- Westminster Dictionary of Theolgical Terms

"...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.
- John Calvin from Bondage and Liberation of the Will, pg. 69-70

Grace and peace to you.

I think we need to stick to Gods Word rather mans ideas...
Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

James 1:13-16 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus is God/Man keep that in mind, you are not God friend

Show me from the bible where it says "Jesus is God".
I'll show you in from bible where it says "The Word took on flesh".
John 1:14..."And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

BTW, this has gotten us far too from the OP's idea.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No,

Are you really saying anyone will be saved without being born again ?
I hope not !

but Jesus is stating what must happen to a person before they can believe on Christ and be saved.

How can anything happen before one believes in Who or what needs to be done ?
The unbelieving won't turn from sin.
The unbelieving won't get water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins.
The unbelieving won't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, or speak in tongues, or glorify God with good works.

There's no place for man's freewill.

Without the will to please God, we can't please God.
Pro 8:21..."That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures."

In natural birth does the baby have a freewill to get born physically ?

Nope, making me rejoice in the fact that we CAN will to be reborn !

Jesus said..."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

As all "work iniquity" before their repentance from sin, why is God assigning them to salvation at all ?

 

[follower]

How can anything happen before one believes in Who or what needs to be done ?

Idolators, thieves, alcholics, gays, perverts, adulterers
each or all might thing they are okay with Jesus even if they do not confess their sin and repent. Of course they remain lost, but who can say, who can open their (anyones') eyes to see ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Idolators, thieves, alcholics, gays, perverts, adulterers
each or all might thing they are okay with Jesus even if they do not confess their sin and repent.

I cannot imagine that.
All men have a God given conscience, and Adam's knowledge of good and evil; so must know their dealings are not OK with God.

Of course they remain lost, but who can say, who can open their (anyones') eyes to see ?

God is not hidden from any of us.
When one is ready to quit sinning, God will have everything in place for the repentant's "way" forward.
Thanks be to God !