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Does man have free will to choose salvation?

Alfred Persson said:
You spend zero effort at understanding what I say. I explained my view in detail. There is little point in addressing arguments that aren't relevant to my position:

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He...
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This is not true.

These asre your words.
God elected those who loved Him in His Omniscience, when they "awoke" and saw God loving them. They loved Him back.
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I understand what you your belief is.

I am addressing what you believe and showing you it is not Biblical.

Grace and peace to you.
 
electedbyHim said:
This is not true.

These asre your words.


I understand what you your belief is.

I am addressing what you believe and showing you it is not Biblical.

Grace and peace to you.
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Proving you haven't understood my position, you ask:

Are you suggesting that the Sovereign God and Lord Jesus Christ chose to elect Alfred Persson to salvation before the foundations of the world because He knew you would love Him?

I am suggesting God knew this fallen world would prevent me from being saved, that is why He predestined I would not be lost.

This doesn't mean God foreknew to know, He is omniscient and already knew all things BEFORE He created:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ)

Our salvation is NOT based on "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". The moment God pondered creating all things, everything that would happen because of that creation was known to Him, including TWO VERSIONS of us: 1)The unfallen version; 2)The fallen version we are now.

So in the Omniscience of God, when He contemplated creating, the "unfallen version" of us sprang into existence. As God looked upon them communicating knowledge of Himself and His love for them, 1)some responded by loving Him back; 2)Others just blinked their eyes clueless wondering what would happen next; 3)Others recoiled from Him, hating the light.

At this point in time these unfallen versions don't exist, and they never will because the fall happened. What came into existence is the fallen version of us we are today.

God selected the unfallen versions of those who loved Him, and specially knew them in His foreknowledge. Romans 11:2 implies God developed a special relationship with these in His foreknowledge.

This is separate from knowing how Satan would lead Adam to fall, and most of these would be lost in a fallen world.

God had a dilemma. He wanted to create so these who loved Him back, could come into existence but most of them would be eternally lost because of this fallen world. Therefore, to gurantee NONE of them be lost, He predestines them to be justified and glorified in Christ.

This predestintion is NOT based on what the fallen versions of them do now. Their salvation is according to God's good purpose and will. Their calling is by His grace, not their works or "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". In the fallen realm many of these did not have any faith or love for God, they were destroyed by the fallen realm.

Only these lovers of God are predestined unto salvation, NOT the other two classes of people, the clueless and the wicked.

He does not predestine them for anything. They can choose to be saved in the fallen realm, and join the elect.

God's good purpose and will is that those who love God not be lost because this fallen realm's seductive power of sin, all things will work together for thier good, their ultimate salvation.

So God predestined me to be saved BECAUSE I would otherwise be lost. This is unmerited, I did nothing to deserve it. My calling was according to His good purpose and will I not be lost.

As the opportunity for salvation is equally available to everyone, whosoever believes in Jesus will be saved. God has not shown anyone partiality, everyone including the Elect are saved through faith in Christ. Everyone can be saved but won't be. The children of the devil will act wickedly and do wicked things. Its who they are, but that is their free will choice. As for the "clueless", some of them will be saved, some will backslide and be lost. Once one of them is saved, they cannnot lose their salvation. They are equal to the Elect.
 
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Hopeful 2 said:
Jesus Christ is the Word, after taking on flesh.
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
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Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)
 
Hopeful 2 said:
Jesus Christ is the Word, after taking on flesh.
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
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So you reject the Deity of Christ.

You reject many truths of the Bible.

But rejecting that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh is very telling per 1 John 4:3.

I will no longer reply to you because I will be guilty of participating in your evil deeds.
2 John 1:11
 
Alfred Persson said:
Proving you haven't understood my position, you ask:

Are you suggesting that the Sovereign God and Lord Jesus Christ chose to elect Alfred Persson to salvation before the foundations of the world because He knew you would love Him?

I am suggesting God knew this fallen world would prevent me from being saved, that is why He predestined I would not be lost.

This doesn't mean God foreknew to know, He is omniscient and already knew all things BEFORE He created:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ)

Our salvation is NOT based on "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". The moment God pondered creating all things, everything that would happen because of that creation was known to Him, including TWO VERSIONS of us: 1)The unfallen version; 2)The fallen version we are now.

So in the Omniscience of God, when He contemplated creating, the "unfallen version" of us sprang into existence. As God looked upon them communicating knowledge of Himself and His love for them, 1)some responded by loving Him back; 2)Others just blinked their eyes clueless wondering what would happen next; 3)Others recoiled from Him, hating the light.

At this point in time these unfallen versions don't exist, and they never will because the fall happened. What came into existence is the fallen version of us we are today.

God selected the unfallen versions of those who loved Him, and specially knew them in His foreknowledge. Romans 11:2 implies God developed a special relationship with these in His foreknowledge.

This is separate from knowing how Satan would lead Adam to fall, and most of these would be lost in a fallen world.

God had a dilemma. He wanted to create so these who loved Him back, could come into existence but most of them would be eternally lost because of this fallen world. Therefore, to gurantee NONE of them be lost, He predestines them to be justified and glorified in Christ.

This predestintion is NOT based on what the fallen versions of them do now. Their salvation is according to God's good purpose and will. Their calling is by His grace, not their works or "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". In the fallen realm many of these did not have any faith or love for God, they were destroyed by the fallen realm.

Only these lovers of God are predestined unto salvation, NOT the other two classes of people, the clueless and the wicked.

He does not predestine them for anything. They can choose to be saved in the fallen realm, and join the elect.

God's good purpose and will is that those who love God not be lost because this fallen realm's seductive power of sin, all things will work together for thier good, their ultimate salvation.

So God predestined me to be saved BECAUSE I would otherwise be lost. This is unmerited, I did nothing to deserve it. My calling was according to His good purpose and will I not be lost.

As the opportunity for salvation is equally available to everyone, whosoever believes in Jesus will be saved. God has not shown anyone partiality, everyone including the Elect are saved through faith in Christ. Everyone can be saved but won't be. The children of the devil will act wickedly and do wicked things. Its who they are, but that is their free will choice. As for the "clueless", some of them will be saved, some will backslide and be lost. Once one of them is saved, they cannnot lose their salvation. They are equal to the Elect.
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Your post is very confusing.

You are saying God has others He will save besides His elect.

You are also implying that they can lose their salvation.

Very confusing.

God did not predestine anyone who already loved Him. This makes no sense.
 
God chose us to salvation

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Thessalonians 2:14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Alfred Persson said:
Proving you haven't understood my position, you ask:

Are you suggesting that the Sovereign God and Lord Jesus Christ chose to elect Alfred Persson to salvation before the foundations of the world because He knew you would love Him?

I am suggesting God knew this fallen world would prevent me from being saved, that is why He predestined I would not be lost.

This doesn't mean God foreknew to know, He is omniscient and already knew all things BEFORE He created:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 NKJ)

Our salvation is NOT based on "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". The moment God pondered creating all things, everything that would happen because of that creation was known to Him, including TWO VERSIONS of us: 1)The unfallen version; 2)The fallen version we are now.

So in the Omniscience of God, when He contemplated creating, the "unfallen version" of us sprang into existence. As God looked upon them communicating knowledge of Himself and His love for them, 1)some responded by loving Him back; 2)Others just blinked their eyes clueless wondering what would happen next; 3)Others recoiled from Him, hating the light.

At this point in time these unfallen versions don't exist, and they never will because the fall happened. What came into existence is the fallen version of us we are today.

God selected the unfallen versions of those who loved Him, and specially knew them in His foreknowledge. Romans 11:2 implies God developed a special relationship with these in His foreknowledge.

This is separate from knowing how Satan would lead Adam to fall, and most of these would be lost in a fallen world.

God had a dilemma. He wanted to create so these who loved Him back, could come into existence but most of them would be eternally lost because of this fallen world. Therefore, to gurantee NONE of them be lost, He predestines them to be justified and glorified in Christ.

This predestintion is NOT based on what the fallen versions of them do now. Their salvation is according to God's good purpose and will. Their calling is by His grace, not their works or "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". In the fallen realm many of these did not have any faith or love for God, they were destroyed by the fallen realm.

Only these lovers of God are predestined unto salvation, NOT the other two classes of people, the clueless and the wicked.

He does not predestine them for anything. They can choose to be saved in the fallen realm, and join the elect.

God's good purpose and will is that those who love God not be lost because this fallen realm's seductive power of sin, all things will work together for thier good, their ultimate salvation.

So God predestined me to be saved BECAUSE I would otherwise be lost. This is unmerited, I did nothing to deserve it. My calling was according to His good purpose and will I not be lost.

As the opportunity for salvation is equally available to everyone, whosoever believes in Jesus will be saved. God has not shown anyone partiality, everyone including the Elect are saved through faith in Christ. Everyone can be saved but won't be. The children of the devil will act wickedly and do wicked things. Its who they are, but that is their free will choice. As for the "clueless", some of them will be saved, some will backslide and be lost. Once one of them is saved, they cannnot lose their salvation. They are equal to the Elect.
Click to expand...

Here is where the confusion comes in.

Our salvation is NOT based on "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". The moment God pondered creating all things, everything that would happen because of that creation was known to Him, including TWO VERSIONS of us: 1)The unfallen version; 2)The fallen version we are now.

So in the Omniscience of God, when He contemplated creating, the "unfallen version" of us sprang into existence. As God looked upon them communicating knowledge of Himself and His love for them, 1)some responded by loving Him back; 2)Others just blinked their eyes clueless wondering what would happen next; 3)Others recoiled from Him, hating the light.

At this point in time these unfallen versions don't exist, and they never will because the fall happened. What came into existence is the fallen version of us we are today.

God selected the unfallen versions of those who loved Him, and specially knew them in His foreknowledge. Romans 11:2 implies God developed a special relationship with these in His foreknowledge.
Click to expand...
You say this...
Our salvation is NOT based on "foreseen faith" or "foreseen love". The moment God pondered creating all things, everything that would happen because of that creation was known to Him, including TWO VERSIONS of us: 1)The unfallen version; 2)The fallen version we are now.
Click to expand...

And then say this...
God selected the unfallen versions of those who loved Him, and specially knew them in His foreknowledge.
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Definition of Election.

The decree of election is the free and sovereign choice of God, made in eternity past, to set his love on certain individuals, and, on the basis of nothing in themselves but solely because of the good pleasure of his will, to choose them to be saved from sin and damnation and to inherit the blessings of eternal life through the mediatorial work of Christ.

What you are conveying to me is that the foreknowledge of God saw that man would love Him and then predestined that man to salvation (election). Is this correct?

This is known as the prescient view. In a nut shell, man has control over his salvation. Because man's free will is sovereign, God decided to choose man for salvation, because of the choice that man has made.



Biblical Doctrine: A Systematic Summary of Bible Truth (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2017), 493.
 
Hopeful 2 said:
"You must be born again": sounds like something every man must do to be saved.
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No, but Jesus is stating what must happen to a person before they can believe on Christ and be saved. There's no place for man's freewill. In natural birth does the baby have a freewill to get born physically ?
 
electedbyHim said:
Your post is very confusing.

You are saying God has others He will save besides His elect.

You are also implying that they can lose their salvation.

Very confusing.

God did not predestine anyone who already loved Him. This makes no sense.
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As I said, you do not understand what I believe.

When you read my explanation you try to put it in a context of what you already know. This is new.

What I said isn't said by others. It resolves the paradox of predestination and free will.

No one has done that before. So until you stop trying to make it Calvinist, or Arminiam, you won't understand it has elements of both.
 
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