Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Dorothy Mae]

You said it to rogerg in Post #247.

Here is that post.

Thanks for your kindness in word, but that is not what I said, not everyone who becomes saved becomes saved in exactly the same manner except that repentance of sin and receiving forgiveness is a necessary part. I mean, how can one be saved from sin if one refuses to admits one sinned and NEEDS to be forgiven and saved? Otherwise the stories are different for a variety of reasons. It is complex.

God can know it and the man God shows the heart to.

David sought the Lord. The people sought the Lord. I can give you scripture after scripture where people sought the Lord. Your scripture is a reference to a particular time in Israel. Jesus told us to seek God. Why if no one does? Now what?

The centurion in the Bible is described as doing good. the Bible repeatedly speaks of doing good. Why is no one ever does any good any where in his/her life. I mean, do you really think that no one in the whole world ever does any good ever???

You think this describes everyone in the whole world? Really? I recall the peace movement. They knew peace and in droves.

Would you like scriptures that discuss who had the fear of God before their eyes?

OK, the law taught us sin.

Christians also do not receive the things of the Spirit of God and call them foolishness. You cannot imagine how many times Christians mock the truth when it does not suit their theology. They are foolishness to them. Discernment is a rare commodity in the church today.

Where do you see that I define what a Christian is here? That was your claim, that I define Christians as not receiving the things of the Spirit of God AS a definition. I mean, Christians eat breakfast too but that does not define them. Christians sleep but that does not define them. Christians also refuse to receive the things of the Spirit which is why there are so many different theologies and opinions. I mean widely different. Why? Because they also, at times, same as they eat breakfast and sleep at times, do NOT receive what the Spirit of God would say. That is not a definition of what a Christian is anymore than a person who eats breakfast and sleeps.

Your answer here is to your own post (#247)

As you see, you are twisting words to suit your claim. I can make hundreds of statements as to what Christians do and do not do and none of them are a definition.

It is apparent that we have different descriptions of "Christian".

I do not recall defining what a Christian is.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Correction: It just occurred to me that my niece was extremely jealous. My sister-in-law had to lock the sleeping baby in her room and HIDE the key, But it’s easy to see why the 2 year old was jealous. She even bit other children. Love was sparingly given in that household.

You can stop praying because these girls are now grown, one with children of her own. The damage is done and over. Good parenting is not easy but it is possible. She did not do good parenting although her husband is a psychiatrist. I could tell you more about the poor parenting they did and how their oldest behaved that would be shocking considering he is professionally trained. Well, not my kids and not my problem.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The point was that those saved are saved regardless of what they are not because of it. Once saved, both David and Paul
never stopped being saved regardless of any sins they committed.

You're making the gospel of repentance and forgivness, which our Savior taught, meaningless.

Christ was nailed to the cross for all Christians.

Jesus taught,

I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mt.9:13

Which verses are you referring to?

Rom.2:4. So what goodness and forebearsnce do you think Paul is referring to and for what reason?

Huh? I never said that. The point was that no one can know or love God until being taught of God.
How can someone love somebody they don't know?

They can't, that's why,

in many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days by his Son Heb.1:1-2

 

[Whatever]

Didn’t need to be the whole nation spreading the Gospel. But the disciples were Jews. Even Pentecost saw 3000 Jews added to the church. The Jews spread the Gospel initially. The plan worked perfectly. When the Mosaic covenant ended in 70 AD, the church was freed up from that age.

Here is your original post #326
Because He wanted a whole nation that understood matters of the Kingdom so a people would be ready to receive the son of God and take the good news to the world.

That whole nation did not understand matters of the Kingdom. When their King came, they asserted "we have no king but Caesar."

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Now you going into another matter, salvation isnt offered, its given to Gods elect freely as a Gift, and the natural man is dead to God, has no desire for God nor the things of God.

I'm not arguing against sinners having no understanding because they love the praise of men more than the praise of God, or love wealth more than God, or are not forgiving.

The irony is, many within Judaism believe they are Gods' chosen people, no matter what they do and this outright heresy has been adopted by Calvanists.

 

[rogerg]

You're making the gospel of repentance and forgivness, which our Savior taught, meaningless.

Whether you realize it or not, you're making the concept of a Saviour meaningless and are instead trusting in your works for salvation. Christ taught that salvation is solely through and by Him as Saviour -- man's works cannot save.

I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mt.9:13

God must GIVE repentance. Since not everyone is able to acknowledge the truth (Jesus as Saviour), that means He does not give repentance to everyone: repentance is in one's acknowledgement/belief in Christ instead of in themselves or in their actions.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

So what goodness and forebearsnce do you think Paul is referring to and for what reason?

The forbearance is that God brought forth a Saviour to save some when by rights, we all deserve only His judgement and eternal death- so, to whomever the Son was given, all of their sin, and theirs alone, was forever put behind God.
It's interesting that you used Romans 2:4 since it says that it is by solely God that one is led to repentance -- not by man.
[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

They can't, that's why,

in many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days by his Son Heb.1:1-2

The point was that they must be taught of God first, to know God. So, until and
unless that happens to someone, they will never be able to love Him: the love of God comes from that, and therefore, it is itself also a gift of God.

 

[Whatever]

The irony is, many within Judaism believe they are Gods' chosen people, no matter what they do and this outright heresy has been adopted by Calvanists.

Again, you don't understand Calvinism. The Jews believed they were saved because of all the promises in the OT directed at Abraham and his seed.

Gen_26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

Gen_12:3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

They claim that they (Jews) are the seed of Abraham and thus inherit all the promises. There does not seem to be any conditions in these promises.

Calvinists understand these promises as spiritual.
Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Gal_3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We know election is not based on nationality, but simply God's choosing whosoever He will.
Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

So a Christian can simply assume he is one of the elect because we are in Christ by faith, not because of who my ancestors were.

By the way, it is Romans 2:28 that gives us the idea that all those Jews who were saved in the OT had that circumcision of the heart.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm not arguing against sinners having no understanding because they love the praise of men more than the praise of God, or love wealth more than God, or are not forgiving.

The irony is, many within Judaism believe they are Gods' chosen people, no matter what they do and this outright heresy has been adopted by Calvanists.

This thread was established to show that men by nature dont seek God or understand. So God must give them a new heart which is the New Birth

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Here is your original post #326
Because He wanted a whole nation that understood matters of the Kingdom so a people would be ready to receive the son of God and take the good news to the world.

That whole nation did not understand matters of the Kingdom. When their King came, they asserted "we have no king but Caesar."

Israel was the only nation in the whole world with books inspired by God explaining God and how He wants people to live. The only one. Paul writes in Romans how the Jews were the ones in possession of the oracles or understanding of the Kingdom of God and it grieved him that so many refused to see the fulfillment of those words. God doesn’t need every last person to understand. He just needed enough and He sent John to prepare them. It cannot be denied that we have the Gospel because Jewish men went out and shared it at great personal risk. In those early years, mostly if not only Jews. It wasn’t an international interracial team. The disciples were all Jews and only Jews. We owe them that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This thread was established to show that men by nature dont seek God or understand. So God must give them a new heart which is the New Birth

You have failed to show this. You simply state it as fact, refuse the evidence it isn’t so and think you’ve done it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm not arguing against sinners having no understanding because they love the praise of men more than the praise of God, or love wealth more than God, or are not forgiving.

The irony is, many within Judaism believe they are Gods' chosen people, no matter what they do and this outright heresy has been adopted by Calvanists.

I never thought about that. Ibet they think Gods promise to the Jews was also unconditional which works if you ignore pages and pages of the conditional nature of the promise. The Jews lost their land more than once because of their behavior.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Again, you don't understand Calvinism. The Jews believed they were saved because of all the promises in the OT directed at Abraham and his seed.

Gen_26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

Gen_12:3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

They claim that they (Jews) are the seed of Abraham and thus inherit all the promises. There does not seem to be any conditions in these promises.

Calvinists understand these promises as spiritual.
Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Gal_3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We know election is not based on nationality, but simply God's choosing whosoever He will.
Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

So a Christian can simply assume he is one of the elect because we are in Christ by faith, not because of who my ancestors were.

By the way, it is Romans 2:28 that gives us the idea that all those Jews who were saved in the OT had that circumcision of the heart.

The promise to Abraham’s offspring was land, not salvation. That was conditional with the conditions laid out. They list the land more than once because of their behavior.

 

[electedbyHim]

You have failed to show this. You simply state it as fact, refuse the evidence it isn’t so and think you’ve done it.

Brightframes opening post includes scripture to prove that you are wrong.

Looking at it another way.

The unsaved are likened to dead men in the Bible, they are spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your transgressions and sins

Colossians 2:13 And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him, having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions.

To illustrate, think of Jesus’ raising of Lazarus in John 11. The physically dead Lazarus could do nothing for himself. He was unresponsive to all stimuli, oblivious to all life around him, beyond all help or hope—except for the help of Christ who is “the Resurrection and the Life” (John 11:25). At Christ’s call, Lazarus was filled with life, and he responded accordingly. In the same way, we were spiritually dead, unable to save ourselves, powerless to perceive the life of God—until Jesus called us to Himself. He “quickened” us; “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5).

The Lord Himself said:

Luke 9:60 But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.”

If the unregenerate are spiritually dead how can they seek God on their own? They cannot.

Only pride believes that they can choose salvation, mans own self-centeredness.


Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

One cannot explain this away.

I am certain you will point out that I am wrong as you have with others.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Brightframes opening post includes scripture to prove that you are wrong.

Looking at it another way.

The unsaved are likened to dead men in the Bible, they are spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your transgressions and sins

Colossians 2:13 And you being dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him, having graciously forgiven us all our transgressions.



The Lord Himself said:

Luke 9:60 But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.”

If the unregenerate are spiritually dead how can they seek God on their own? They cannot.

Only pride believes that they can choose salvation, mans own self-centeredness.


Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

One cannot explain this away.

I am certain you will point out that I am wrong as you have with others.

Grace and peace to you.

Amd we supplied ample scriptures to show he is wrong. And not one scripture supplied says God has to redeem a man before he becomes curious about God. I ousted many scriptures that describe people seeking God. No hint of God changing them first.

 

[electedbyHim]

Amd we supplied ample scriptures to show he is wrong. And not one scripture supplied says God has to redeem a man before he becomes curious about God. I ousted many scriptures that describe people seeking God. No hint of God changing them first.

Your Arminian theology is incorrect.

Please explain the scriptures I provided, not your opinion.
You are not really saying the OP is wrong, what you are really saying is that Scripture is wrong.

Scripture interprets scripture.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your Arminian theology is incorrect.

Please explain the scriptures I provided, not your opinion.
You are not really saying the OP is wrong, what you are really saying is that Scripture is wrong.

Scripture interprets scripture.

Grace and peace to you.

Since you’ve made your mind than only your view IS scripture and everyone else is wrong, what’s the point?

 

[electedbyHim]

Since you’ve made your mind than only your view IS scripture and everyone else is wrong, what’s the point?

Sola Scriptura (scripture alone), is that not what true Christians live by?

It is Biblical.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Whether you realize it or not, you're making the concept of a Saviour meaningless and are instead trusting in your works for salvation. Christ taught that salvation is solely through and by Him as Saviour -- man's works cannot save.

On the contrary, the concept of a Savior becomes meaningless if Gods' choosing is arbitrary. It isn't.

God must GIVE repentance. Since not everyone is able to acknowledge the truth (Jesus as Saviour), that means He does not give repentance to everyone: repentance is in one's acknowledgement/belief in Christ instead of in themselves or in their actions.

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Underline the 1st part of the sentence also, because if God was arbitrary in his selection of people, it wouldn't matter how the gospel was presented, but you see it does matter.

[Heb 6:1 KJV] 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And this is how watered down the gospel has becone, because "not laying down a foundation of repentance from dead works" is only accomplished by following Christ.
He's warning believers to refrain from sin by following the teachings of Jesus,

Look---> And this will we do, if God permit. vs.3

Does this mean God arbitrarily might not permit someone to be saved? No! Because,

it is impossible for those who were once enlightened.....if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. vss.4,6

He's saying committing sin you need to keep repenting of, is no different than what the sinners who abused his Son did. They shamed him. Put this way, if every time you committed sin, you had to slap your own son or daughter in the face, would you keep committing sin? Hello?

The forbearance is that God brought forth a Saviour to save some when by rights, we all deserve only His judgement and eternal death- so, to whomever the Son was given, all of their sin, and theirs alone, was forever put behind God.
It's interesting that you used Romans 2:4 since it says that it is by solely God that one is led to repentance -- not by man.
[Rom 2:4 KJV] 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

My friend, the forebearance and goodness of God is that Jesus didn't pull Pontius Pilates' eyes out of his head for the disrespect he was shown.

The point was that they must be taught of God first, to know God. So, until and
unless that happens to someone, they will never be able to love Him: the love of God comes from that, and therefore, it is itself also a gift of God.

What do you think God was doing for 3 years, when he walked on earth as a man?

Here's a good idea. Imagine yourself in a position of complete authority over others. Then inmagine your inferiors began abusing you and ask yourself how long you would put up with their bs.

 

[rogerg]

Amd we supplied ample scriptures to show he is wrong. And not one scripture supplied says God has to redeem a man before he becomes curious about God. I ousted many scriptures that describe people seeking God. No hint of God changing them first.

First, wasn't the following posted previously? How then can those who do not "seeketh after God", seeketh after God, given that none means none? So, for that change to happen something external must intervene. What was it?

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Second, did you miss the posts that demonstrated the unsaved are dead in sin? How can a dead person seeketh anything or even know there is anything to seek? Next dead person you see, tell them they are not trying in the correct way to give themselves physical life.

Many, probably most people seek after God in their own way using their human intellect which leads to a wrong gospel, but only those chosen in Christ are led by Him to Him.

Third, neither you nor anyone else is in a position to determine when and if someone became saved -- only God knows that.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Again, you don't understand Calvinism. The Jews believed they were saved because of all the promises in the OT directed at Abraham and his seed.

Gen_26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

Gen_12:3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

They claim that they (Jews) are the seed of Abraham and thus inherit all the promises. There does not seem to be any conditions in these promises.

Calvinists understand these promises as spiritual.
Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Gal_3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We know election is not based on nationality, but simply God's choosing whosoever He will.
Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

So a Christian can simply assume he is one of the elect because we are in Christ by faith, not because of who my ancestors were.

By the way, it is Romans 2:28 that gives us the idea that all those Jews who were saved in the OT had that circumcision of the heart.

I understand Calvanism very well. Calvanists claim Gods' choosing is capricious. It isn't.

Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? Jas.2:5

Is James saying every poor person will be saved?