Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[journeymanisnothing]

This thread was established to show that men by nature dont seek God or understand. So God must give them a new heart which is the New Birth

Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned... Num.21:6-7

When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God. Ps.78:34

Just a little correction. Nothing mysterious.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I never thought about that. Ibet they think Gods promise to the Jews was also unconditional which works if you ignore pages and pages of the conditional nature of the promise. The Jews lost their land more than once because of their behavior.

Calvanists teach unconditional election because somewhere along the line, theologians bastardized the writings of Paul, taking statements which say "works don't save", which is true, but neglect the context, which is clearly for the sake of humility.
In no way did our Savior or Paul teach that sinners can't repent of their own volition.

 

[Whatever]

Calvanists claim Gods' choosing is capricious

Show me one Calvinist book, that uses that word.

 

[Whatever]

The promise to Abraham’s offspring was land, not salvation.

This is not the whole Biblical view. Have you forgotten the book of Hebrews? This will take a few passages.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect

That something better is the New Heaven and New Earth that is still in the future.

The writer of Hebrews is saying that these people of faith, were not concerned with Earthly land. They knew there was something Heavenly or better that they would not get in their lifetimes.

But a lot of the people saw it as simply Earthly promises.

Jos 21:45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

But with the coming of the NT, we are shown that these promises also had a spiritual fulfillment. That is what Hebrews is talking about.

Eph 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 3:11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

So, whatever promises God made to anybody, Jesus has fulfilled them. I like the New Living Translation on this.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all of God’s promises have been fulfilled in Christ with a resounding “Yes!” And through Christ, our “Amen” (which means “Yes”) ascends to God for his glory.

 

[Whatever]

theologians bastardized the writings of Paul

That's what Jews say too.

 

[Whatever]

statements which say "works don't save", which is true, but neglect the context, which is clearly for the sake of humility.

No, I think they are actually there to teach that performing rituals like playing with rosary beads, saying Hail Mary's, or not eating pork, or eating fish on Friday's is what Jesus is all about.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Show me one Calvinist book, that uses that word.

Unconditional Election - asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen.

What is Calvinism? - Understanding the History and Denominational Doctrine

Calvinism is a protestant denomination and set of beliefs that came from reformed doctrine by John Calvin. Let's take a look at how it started and what it's beliefs are.

www.christianity.com

That's the definition of capricious, or arbitrary.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That's what Jews say too.

Good for them. Now all they have to do is realize some of their Rabbis' bastardized the writings of Moses and they'll be all set.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

No, I think they are actually there to teach that performing rituals like playing with rosary beads, saying Hail Mary's, or not eating pork, or eating fish on Friday's is what Jesus is all about.

Or having a piece of your flesh sliced off. Hey, aee we getting somewhere?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is not the whole Biblical view. Have you forgotten the book of Hebrews? This will take a few passages.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect

That something better is the New Heaven and New Earth that is still in the future.

The writer of Hebrews is saying that these people of faith, were not concerned with Earthly land. They knew there was something Heavenly or better that they would not get in their lifetimes.

But a lot of the people saw it as simply Earthly promises.

Jos 21:45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

But with the coming of the NT, we are shown that these promises also had a spiritual fulfillment. That is what Hebrews is talking about.

Eph 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 3:11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

So, whatever promises God made to anybody, Jesus has fulfilled them. I like the New Living Translation on this.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all of God’s promises have been fulfilled in Christ with a resounding “Yes!” And through Christ, our “Amen” (which means “Yes”) ascends to God for his glory.

Yes this is true and beautifully put. You do realize that you have to use NT verses, right? No words directly to Abraham say any of that although it is, of course true.

But it wasn’t promised to the descendants because they were descendants. Promises in Hebrews were to the faithful not the lineage so they were conditional. It says above “by faith” not by heritage. And they had to remain faithful.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

First, wasn't the following posted previously? How then can those who do not "seeketh after God", seeketh after God, given that none means none? So, for that change to happen something external must intervene. What was it?

[Rom 3:10-11 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Second, did you miss the posts that demonstrated the unsaved are dead in sin? How can a dead person seeketh anything or even know there is anything to seek? Next dead person you see, tell them they are not trying in the correct way to give themselves physical life.

Many, probably most people seek after God in their own way using their human intellect which leads to a wrong gospel, but only those chosen in Christ are led by Him to Him.

Third, neither you nor anyone else is in a position to determine when and if someone became saved -- only God knows that.

This is certainly the Calvinist position. Calvin himself says he didn’t know whether he was saved or not so your last statement fits well into that theology.

Otherwise it’s only the Calvinists who think this. The rest of us aren’t convinced seeking requires God to change someone first. Call someone? Yes. Change them on the inside? No.

 

[electedbyHim]

Since you’ve made your mind than only your view IS scripture and everyone else is wrong, what’s the point?

So you have nothing.

 

[brightfame52]

Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned... Num.21:6-7

When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God. Ps.78:34

Just a little correction. Nothing mysterious.

Nothing has changed, men naturally don't seek after God nor understand Rom 3:11

 

[rogerg]

This is certainly the Calvinist position. Calvin himself says he didn’t know whether he was saved or not so your last statement fits well into that theology.

Otherwise it’s only the Calvinists who think this. The rest of us aren’t convinced seeking requires God to change someone first. Call someone? Yes. Change them on the inside? No.

lol that the best u got?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you have nothing.

I have plenty. You have verses isolated out of the context. Always the same ones. What you don’t see is the assumption that words written about particular persons at a point in time don’t mean everyone everywhere throughout time. When shown numerous examples, they are ignored.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

lol that the best u got?

Not at all, but only one of address the opposition with answers. Your are not that one. That you mockingly laugh shows the inner man.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

lol that the best u got?

Let us take a look at scripture:

When I was in distress, I sought the Lord; at night I stretched out untiring hands, and I would not be comforted. Ps 77:2

But in their distress they turned to the LORD, the God of Israel, and sought him, and he was found by them. 2 Chron 15:4
And Jehoahaz besought the LORD, and the LORD hearkened unto him: for he saw the oppression of Israel, because the king of Syria oppressed them. 2 Kings 13:4

They buried him, for they said, “He was a son of Jehoshaphat, who sought the LORD with all his heart.” 2 Chronograph 22:9

He sought God during the days of Zechariah, who instructed him in the fear of God. As long as he sought the LORD, God gave him success. 2 Chronograph 26:5

Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David inquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, 2 Sam 21:1

And it came to pass, that every one which sought the LORD went out unto the tabernacle of the congregation, which was without the camp. Ex 33:7

The land is still ours, because we have sought the LORD our God; we sought him and he has given us rest on every side.” So they built and prospered. 2 Chronograph 14:7

There are lots more but I am weary of cutting and pasting them all. Logically, if I provide one example of people, unregenerate, seeking the Lord, and I have provided a few, the position that no one in all of human history sought God falls apart. If I adjust the search by using past or future or Lord, there will be more.

The temple was actually a place were a man, unregenerate or not, can come and seek the Lord and they did. Why else would God have provided such a place. This is just one of many Calvinist positions that is wrong according to the Bible. Men sought God in the history of the world some of who were NOT regenerated and wanted to be.

Calvinism is actually easy to expose. One just needs to read more than the scriptures that they provide. Read the whole Bible and it falls apart. This is only one point.

Here is what scripture has to say in answer to the question, a resounding YES, man can and ought to seek God. They seek other things, why not God for a change?

 

[Niblo]

Here is what scripture has to say in answer to the question, a resounding YES, man can and ought to seek God. They seek other things, why not God for a change?

'You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.' (Jer. 29:13).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

'You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.' (Jer. 29:13).

Yes!! It’s not you will seek me and find me when I decide to change your heart.

 

[Niblo]

Yes!! It’s not you will seek me and find me when I decide to change your heart.

Exactly.