Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Dorothy Mae]

I will add to my prior reply that until the last instant of life, or until the last instant before Christ's
return, salvation remains for a possibility for the unsaved. Until either occurs, no
one can know who of the unsaved were chosen or will be saved by God. We do know, however, that for those who are to be saved, neither their death nor Christ's return will occur before their salvation.

For those not predestinated, it is and was NEVER a possibility.That you don’t know who is predestined to be saved makes no difference. You can hope someone in particular is, but in calvinism, that hope is in vain if they weren’t preselected.

I know you don’t like it but running to “we don’t know” doesn’t change anything. I guess you can hope someone you love or you is preselected but that’s it. And you know well that many will not be in heaven so the odds aren’t good.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I will confirm this. I find my self asking the Lord on a daily, for many different people (co-workers) to grant them His gift of faith. Take out the stoney heart and put in a heart of flesh. I find myself doing this more when I do not have a chance to share the Gospel with them. I am a firm believer that my actions and words are a true testimony of Christ, especially if anyone knows I am a child of God.

I went of on a short tangent.

Grace and peace to you.

If you believe in election before the foundation of the world, then that is useless. So you either really DON’T believe it or you are double minded. Almost all Calvinists cannot really live with their espoused theology so you aren’t alone. It’s good you pray despite your theology.

The most consistent thing you could do is pray so and so is predetermined to be saved but that seems pretty silly…pray for something to happen that is a done deal.

 

[Niblo]

Thanks Niblo, means a lot to me today and blesses me. There are those here who’ve told me that me that my writings make them sick, they are so disgusted. Your words are soothing.

Many thanks, Dorothy. I thought you did really really well.........for a scientist!

 

[electedbyHim]

Well, we weren’t formed in the depths of the earth but it’s pretty easy for God to be aware of a developing fetus.

And then there is this verse?

“Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time?”

Hmmm, one can die BEFORE the day written in the book that one would die!!! Ah, free choice means we can miss the plan!

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And intricately woven in the depths of the earth;
secret … depths of the earth. This language is used figuratively of the womb.


Ecclesiastes 7:17 Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a simpleminded fool. Why should you die before your time?

Be not overmuch wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time? - אל תרשע הרבה al tirsha harbeh. Do not multiply wickedness, do not add direct opposition to godliness to the rest of your crimes. Why should you provoke God to destroy you before your time? Perdition will come soon enough. If you will not turn from your sins, and avoid it finally, yet keep out of it as long as you can.

 

[electedbyHim]

If the calvinist is right, it doesn’t matter. But fortunately they aren’t and it does. The Devil demanded to have Peter, but Jesus prayed for him. Why in either case if no one violates free will? It’s because free will means just that, FREE choice. Each man has the power to choose between options.We pray, among other things, that the option God offers becomes attractive to them or that their need for Christ becomes real and they choose Him.

Why do you think I don’t understand that? I understand it better than most calvinists as they generally refuse to see what they theology means.

Your description, for example, means it’s all a game where we are all pawns just manipulated through life. The “means to the end” was determined before birth. And those condemned to hell are equally manipulated with no means to a good end from a predetermined source.

Life is then meaningless. We just live out a preprogrammed set of experiences being deeply deceived as to the freedom we feel. It’s all a cruel game. The pain we suffer from choices we made are really choices your god made for us. No hope. No way out. No learning. No wisdom.

This, I bet, you do not understand.

The alternative is the following. God has particular ways He acts in individual lives and with mankind in general. Each man has freedom to make choices among options. Those options vary greatly from person to person. God calls each man at some point drawing them, but they have freedom to respond as they choose. This, I know, is scarier than the relatively childish view that God controls those choices, as it put the ball into our court, as it were.

But this responsibility we carry is what makes life worth living. It’s not a game. We aren’t manipulated from above. But we are deeply loved. It’s deeply satisfying.

Opinion

 

[electedbyHim]

If you believe in election before the foundation of the world, then that is useless. So you either really DON’T believe it or you are double minded. Almost all Calvinists cannot really live with their espoused theology so you aren’t alone. It’s good you pray despite your theology.

The most consistent thing you could do is pray so and so is predetermined to be saved but that seems pretty silly…pray for something to happen that is a done deal.

More opinion.

 

[electedbyHim]

Thanks Niblo, means a lot to me today and blesses me. There are those here who’ve told me that me that my writings make them sick, they are so disgusted. Your words are soothing.

Do you need that validation for your opinions of scripture? It seems so.

Yes they are your writings and not what Scripture teaches.

Most of your posts are your opinions. That is all.

Arminians are very proud people because they can tell God what their own will is. There is no security or assurance in your salvation and that is not a fruitful way to live. If my salvation depended on me, I would just burn in hell for eternity when I die.

Grace and peace to you

 

[brightfame52]

I understand you believe that, but for that to be true, God would have created some only for the purpose of destroying them. By the Spirit of God speaking in you, do you find that to be true?

Yes it is true, you dont believe Rom 3:11 is true ?

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Now as far as your question is concerned, thats a entirely different topic. Stick with this topic please. But if you want to discuss your question, start the topic, I will join in with my comments.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree but that's not how I understood her question. I thought she was implying that praying can cause someone
to become saved, or to influence God about it in some way. That is an entirely different proposition than what I understood your point to be. Do I misunderstand?

Im not sure what she was saying, no telling. But we know our praying doesnt influence Gods eternal purposes in Salvation not one bit.

 

[Edward]

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,../

 

[journeymanisnothing]

"And if ye refuse": God always proclaims both blessing and curse. Nevertheless, they chose the curse.

Not according to Calvanists, because a "choice" involves an option, which Calvanists claim isn't available.
Your theology is comparable to having a baby and throwing the child in a dumpster,

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be....Without natural affection...2Tim.3:1-3

How then did Jesus pay for sin and save those who are to be saved?

By patiently tolerating, enduring, bearing the sins being committed against him
According to the law, Jesus suffered unjustly, just as his Father does daily,

if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?" Jn.18:23

bless them that curse you....That ye may be the children of your Father... Mt.5:44-45

They do. God's wisdom determined those whom He would save.

For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching. 1Cor.1:21

That man is Jesus.

That's for sure and since our Savior wants us to know him intimately,

they will put some of you to death. Lk.21:16

I don't follow you

Put yourself in that role.

God molds only those who are of His elect. See 1 Co 2:14 above
Pharaoh's "free will" led him to his destruction, his army destruction, and his nation destruction and that destruction
was God's purpose. For this purpose, God had raised-up Pharaoh

The free will of the unsaved is incapable of free-willing to good. If and when anyone free-wills to good, is
only because they've become saved otherwise, they remain under Satan.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Have you noticed that when interpreted properly, 1Cor.2:14 and 2Cor.4:4 agree with Jer.18:3-10? I don't play ping pong.

 

[electedbyHim]

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,../

So if all men are saved there would be no need for eternal hell. The blood of Christ would also cover the unsaved.

all men. This does not teach universal salvation. Mankind is translated as "man" in Tit_3:4 to refer to humanity in general, as a category, not to every individual. See notes on 2Co_5:19; 2Pe_3:9. Jesus Christ made a sufficient sacrifice to cover every sin of every one who believes (Joh_3:16-18; 1Ti_2:5-6; 1Ti_4:10; 1Jn_2:2). Paul makes clear in the opening words of this letter to Titus that salvation becomes effective only through "the faith of God's elect" (Tit_1:1). See note on Tit_3:2. Out of all humanity, only those who believe will be saved (Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16; Joh_5:24, Joh_5:38, Joh_5:40; Joh_6:40; Joh_10:9; Rom_10:9-17).

Grace and peace to you

 

[Edward]

So if all men are saved there would be no need for eternal hell. The blood of Christ would also cover the unsaved.

It doesn't say that all will be saved. It says the grace which brings salvation is available to all men.

So perhaps you misunderstood my post?

 

[brightfame52]

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,../

That applies to Gods Elect and that Grace actually brings Salvation, saving, converting them. Thats why it says we are saved by grace.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes it is true, you dont believe Rom 3:11 is true ?

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Now as far as your question is concerned, thats a entirely different topic. Stick with this topic please. But if you want to discuss your question, start the topic, I will join in with my comments.

God doing miracles, sending repentant sinners (the Prophets), his own Son working miracles and more repentant sinners (his disciples) to the lost so that men would seek him is the topic. To Calvanists, none of that which God has done helps anyone understand him.

 

[brightfame52]

It doesn't say that all will be saved. It says the grace which brings salvation is available to all men.

So perhaps you misunderstood my post?

Thats error, nothing about anything being available. Grace here in Titus 2:11 brings Salvation, its converting grace. The word bring is actually sōtērios and means:

1. saving, bringing salvation

You are selling Grace short, talking about its made available.

 

[brightfame52]

God doing miracles, sending repentant sinners (the Prophets), his own Son working miracles and more repentant sinners (his disciples) to the lost so that men would seek him is the topic. To Calvanists, none of that which God has done helps anyone understand him.

You still dont bow to Gods word, the natural man does not seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now God does help some men and gives them a New Birth, which is Gods Miracle. After God performs that Miracle for a person, they are able to seek God.

 

[Edward]

That applies to Gods Elect and that Grace actually brings Salvation, saving, converting them. Thats why it says we are saved by grace.

That's entirely incorrect. Read the entire chapter and it is very clear that it speaks of all men. Not a few elect.

Thats error, nothing about anything being available. Grace here in Titus 2:11 brings Salvation, its converting grace. The word bring is actually sōtērios and means:

1. saving, bringing salvation

You are selling Grace short, talking about its made available.

So you seem to be telling me that when Grace comes, then it is somehow not available? That's ridiculous.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You still dont bow to Gods word, the natural man does not seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now God does help some men and gives them a New Birth, which is Gods Miracle. After God performs that Miracle for a person, they are able to seek God.

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore,when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? Isa.5:4

According to Calvanists, God must do more than what he did.

 

[electedbyHim]

It doesn't say that all will be saved. It says the grace which brings salvation is available to all men.

So perhaps you misunderstood my post?

You are correct, I was looking at a different translation

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

The above verse is used by people to justify universalism.