Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Whatever]

I certainly don't like your view of how Jesus purchased us with payment.

Then you don't like what the Bible says.

Act 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory

1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

 

[rogerg]

I know you don’t like it but running to “we don’t know” doesn’t change anything. I guess you can hope someone you love or you is preselected but that’s it. And you know well that many will not be in heaven so the odds aren’t good.

I didn't say it does change anything. But without it being that way, God's mercy or grace could not be given to anyone since one can't exist without the other, so were it left to ourselves, no one could become saved. My point was that until one's very end, salvation remains a possibility. It's God's prerogative as God and Saviour to give it to whomsoever He chooses so to, when He so chooses to, even from the womb or at the death bed and regardless of factors outside of their control such as infirmity, incapacitation, inability to comprehend, or anything else. The same cannot be said for your belief of salvation which is only possible to receive by first making a voluntary intellectual choice for it.

Am I concerned that my loved ones may not be saved - of course I am. Do I hope they are? Of course I do, and I continue to hope. Nevertheless, my trust is in the wisdom of God, not in man.

[Rev 17:8 KJV] 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Edward]

You are correct, I was looking at a different translation

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

The above verse is used by people to justify universalism.

Yep, I'm no universalist lol.

 

[brightfame52]

That's entirely incorrect. Read the entire chapter and it is very clear that it speaks of all men. Not a few elect.



So you seem to be telling me that when Grace comes, then it is somehow not available? That's ridiculous.

No Im correct, you are incorrect and not being guided by what the verse says.

 

[brightfame52]

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore,when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? Isa.5:4

According to Calvanists, God must do more than what he did.

Huh ? Man naturally doesnt seek after God. Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Man naturally has no desire for the True God, in fact, his nature opposes and is at enmity against the True God

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[brightfame52]

That's entirely incorrect. Read the entire chapter and it is very clear that it speaks of all men. Not a few elect.



So you seem to be telling me that when Grace comes, then it is somehow not available? That's ridiculous.

Again, you are selling Grace short, it comes saving those whom Christ died and redeemed, His Elect, it says nothing about making grace available, thats a figment of your imagination.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And intricately woven in the depths of the earth;
secret … depths of the earth. This language is used figuratively of the womb.


Ecclesiastes 7:17 Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a simpleminded fool. Why should you die before your time?

Be not overmuch wicked, neither be thou foolish: why shouldest thou die before thy time? - אל תרשע הרבה al tirsha harbeh. Do not multiply wickedness, do not add direct opposition to godliness to the rest of your crimes. Why should you provoke God to destroy you before your time? Perdition will come soon enough. If you will not turn from your sins, and avoid it finally, yet keep out of it as long as you can.

God isn’t provoked into killing people right and left before their time and scripture doesn’t say he does. It’s better not to accuse him of that which He doesn’t do in general. But what it does say is we can totally miss Gods plan written in the book. Written in the book isn’t written in stone.

 

[Whatever]

What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore,when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? Isa.5:4

According to Calvanists, God must do more than what he did.

No, He did exactly as much as He wanted. They were meant to fall to bring in the Church. Jesus uses this very parable and then concludes:

Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

Rom 11:30 For as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Jews) disobedience,
Rom 11:31 even so these (Jews) also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (Gentiles) they also may obtain mercy.

What you all fail to see is that HIStory is one long wrought out drama that God is working out on the stage of Earth,
in order to bring about the redemption of many sons to glory in a New Heaven and New Earth.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[Edward]

So Abraham did NOT know there was more than material land promised. None of them knew, in that case, right? And land was the promise as I said.

Of course he knew. It's in Genesis 17:1-4
17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.../

That's not talking about land.

 

[Edward]

God isn’t provoked into killing people right and left before their time and scripture doesn’t say he does. It’s better not to accuse him of that which He doesn’t do in general. But what it does say is we can totally miss Gods plan written in the book. Written in the book isn’t written in stone.

I believe you up to the last 8 words, lol.

There's just so much that we can't understand and probably because it simply has not been revealed by the Holy Spirit yet.

In todays world, we are the most intelligent generation yet. Doesn't that sound encouraging?

We're not the wisest generation though. That's the discouraging part.

 

[Whatever]

I also have a hard time understanding her posts. I have read your posts as well and did not think you meant we should not pray for people to be saved.

All I was trying to say is that if you (nobody in particular) believe in absolute free will, and your friend is absolutely resolute to not believe in Jesus, why would pray for Jesus to open this person's eyes? You are violating that persons precious free will.

Free willers act as if "free will" is the most important, precious thing in reality. I'm not referring to anybody on this forum, but to things I have read and heard from people. It is almost as if violating a person's free will is an unforgivable sin. It is more important to let that person go to Hell than to violate their free will.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, He did exactly as much as He wanted. They were meant to fall to bring in the Church. Jesus uses this very parable and then concludes:

No, God wanted to do more. Jesus wanted to heal and COULD not. God WANTED to gather the Jews as a mother hen gathers her brood but COULD NOT.

Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

No word regarding God wanting or planning this from the beginning. None. Why has the Kingdom of God been taken away from the Jews? Because of their behavior not because He determined they must behave badly.

Rom 11:30 For as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Jews) disobedience,
Rom 11:31 even so these (Jews) also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (Gentiles) they also may obtain mercy.

What you all fail to see is that HIStory is one long wrought out drama that God is working out on the stage of Earth,

It most certainly is not. He is not manipulating everyone although you like “working out” as it sounds less evil.

in order to bring about the redemption of many sons to glory in a New Heaven and New Earth.

I notice you have to move away from scripture for that saying because it’s not there. His plan is we become like Jesus, not occupy Heaven.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

“Glory” isn’t just getting people saved from hell. It’s becoming like Jesus.

crossnote, this is why I say die Calvinists think salvation is escaping hell, that’s it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do you need that validation for your opinions of scripture? It seems so.

Yes they are your writings and not what Scripture teaches.

Most of your posts are your opinions. That is all.

Arminians are very proud people because they can tell God what their own will is. There is no security or assurance in your salvation and that is not a fruitful way to live. If my salvation depended on me, I would just burn in hell for eternity when I die.

Grace and peace to you

Your view is typical of calvinists. It also reflects Calvin himself. I’ve talked to a lot and they fall into one of two categories as a result of their theology. One is gentle but turn off their minds as a coping mechanism. You are not one of those.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Huh ? Man naturally doesnt seek after God. Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Man naturally has no desire for the True God, in fact, his nature opposes and is at enmity against the True God

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And the way you interpret Rom.3.11 and 8:7 disagrees with Isa.5:4, but they match perfectly they way I understand them.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Then you don't like what the Bible says.

Act 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory

1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

The passages you're citing say that Jesus paid for doing right at the hands of those who sinned againt him. Hello?

 

[rogerg]

Not according to Calvanists, because a "choice" involves an option, which Calvanists claim isn't available.

A choice they can never make, neither are they able to choose. Why? Because they're blind and lost.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

By patiently tolerating, enduring, bearing the sins being committed against him
According to the law, Jesus suffered unjustly, just as his Father does daily,

[Rev 5:12 KJV] 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
[Eph 2:16 KJV] 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching. 1Cor.1:21

Faith is given only as a fruit of the Spirit. Those who believe, do so by that fruit - true faith is not of oneself

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV] 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Have you noticed that when interpreted properly, 1Cor.2:14 and 2Cor.4:4 agree with Jer.18:3-10? I don't play ping pong.

Nope.

 

[Whatever]

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,../

We always have to go around and around on this little word all (pas) This word has two meanings
1. individually
a. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
b. some of all types

Act 10:11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds (pas) of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air.

King James
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all (pas) evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

New King James
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds (pas) of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

You guys translate the Titus passage as "the grace of God has appeared to every single human being on Earth."
I understand it to be saying that "the grace of God has appeared to mankind." It will eventually over time reach most people, but even now 2,000 years later, it still has not reached some.

 

[Whatever]

The passages you're citing say that Jesus paid for doing right at the hands of those who sinned againt him. Hello?

No, it clearly says that he purchased the Church. The price was His own blood.

When mention is made of a price, and of Christians as bought with a price, the terms plainly enough display the nature, intention, and scope of Christ’s death. The Lord’s delivery to death was the price by which we were bought. The allusion is to the well–known prevalent custom of classical times, with which the apostle was familiar, by which, on the payment of a price, a slave passed out of the hands of one master into the service of another.

As to the price paid, it is elsewhere sufficiently described, when it is represented as the act of Christ, who gave His life a ransom for many.

The meaning of the passage will be evident from the following outline. It presupposes captivity: it takes for granted that in our natural condition we were sold under sin, exposed to the curse, subject to Satan, according to the just Judgment of God, and that a ransom was necessary and fully paid; not, indeed, to Satan, who was but the executioner of God’s justice, but to God, our original owner, and the fountain of justice, to whom we are by this means legitimately restored.

 

[rogerg]

The passages you're citing say that Jesus paid for doing right at the hands of those who sinned againt him. Hello?

"paid for doing right"? What does that mean? Where do you find that conclusion in that verse?
[Heb 9:15 KJV] 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

[brightfame52]

And the way you interpret Rom.3.11 and 8:7 disagrees with Isa.5:4, but they match perfectly they way I understand them.

You say it disagrees but you havent proved it. All I know that scripture is very clear that man by nature doesnt seek God, nor understand God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Man by nature, is at enmity against God, and cannot be subject to Him

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.