Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Whatever]

So Abraham did NOT know there was more than material land promised. None of them knew, in that case, right? And land was the promise as I said.

The land was part of the promise, I don't deny that. But the NT teaches us that it was more than that.

Rom 4:13 For the promise that he would inherit the world (kosmos) did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Vincent's Word Studies on Romans 4:13:
“Paul here takes the Jewish conception of the universal dominion of the Messianic theocracy prefigured by the inheritance of Canaan, divests it of its Judaistic element, and raises it to a christological truth.”

Just like when Eve heard God say to the serpent that her seed would bruise the serpents head, she probably thought it would be Cain, not somebody 4,000 years in the future.

 

[rogerg]

Then there’s no point in praying for anyone, right?

I will add to my prior reply that until the last instant of life, or until the last instant before Christ's
return, salvation remains for a possibility for the unsaved. Until either occurs, no
one can know who of the unsaved were chosen or will be saved by God. We do know, however, that for those who are to be saved, neither their death nor Christ's return will occur before their salvation.

 

[Whatever]

Of course it does. Why do you think it does no good?

Well, if a person has free will, than what are praying too? God won't violate a person's free will, it would be better to try to convince the person yourself through talking to them.

If one is a Calvinist, THEN it does no good as they believe the decision for each man’s eternal destiny was sealed before the world was made. For them it does no good.

You don't understand Calvinism. God doesn't just predestine the end - the person's salvation, but the means to that end. That probably includes the exact sperm and egg that fertilized to make you. Then every thing and second of your life, including prayers of others.

 

[electedbyhim]

Well, if a person has free will, than what are praying too? God won't violate a person's free will, it would be better to try to convince the person yourself through talking to them.

You don't understand Calvinism. God doesn't just predestine the end - the person's salvation, but the means to that end. That probably includes the exact sperm and egg that fertilized to make you. Then every thing and second of your life, including prayers of others.

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And intricately woven in the depths of the earth;
Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

 

[brightfame52]

Regarding salvation, right: those whom God has chosen for salvation will be saved, those whom He hasn't
will not become saved -- Jesus's offering has been completed and accepted by God the Father.
Didn't you read the verses I just posted from Romans 16-18,21(above)?

I believe its appropriate to pray for the salvation, conversion of Gods elect. We may not know who they are, but God does, and we will be praying according to His Will.

 

[electedbyhim]

I believe its appropriate to pray for the salvation, conversion of Gods elect. We may not know who they are, but God does, and we will be praying according to His Will.

I will confirm this. I find my self asking the Lord on a daily, for many different people (co-workers) to grant them His gift of faith. Take out the stoney heart and put in a heart of flesh. I find myself doing this more when I do not have a chance to share the Gospel with them. I am a firm believer that my actions and words are a true testimony of Christ, especially if anyone knows I am a child of God.

I went of on a short tangent.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

I will confirm this. I find my self asking the Lord on a daily, for many different people (co-workers) to grant them His gift of faith. Take out the stoney heart and put in a heart of flesh. I find myself doing this more when I do not have a chance to share the Gospel with them. I am a firm believer that my actions and words are a true testimony of Christ, especially if anyone knows I am a child of God.

I went of on a short tangent.

Grace and peace to you.

Now you do understand its not Gods will to save everyone, however , praying for someone's Salvation, it shows that it depends solely on the Sovereign Will of God whether or not that person or persons will be saved. Salvation is according to Gods will and not mans Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[electedbyhim]

Now you do understand its not Gods will to save everyone, however , praying for someone's Salvation, it shows that it depends solely on the Sovereign Will of God whether or not that person or persons will be saved. Salvation is according to Gods will and not mans Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I understand what it means to pray according to Gods will from a Biblical perspective. Few will be saved. I do not know who those few are so I will usually conclude my prayers that Gods will be done, or if it is His will.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[journeyman]

Nothing has changed, men naturally don't seek after God nor understand Rom 3:11

I understand you believe that, but for that to be true, God would have created some only for the purpose of destroying them. By the Spirit of God speaking in you, do you find that to be true?

 

[journeyman]

No, that is your definition of capricious or arbitrary. What is God does have some reason unknown to us? Again, you limit God. God cannot do X without being capricious or arbitrary. I have heard all kinds of "God would never do . . . ."

I have no idea why you think someone who wronged you, must take glory away from you by asking you for forgiveness. What kind of pride in self is there, in falling down before our Lord?

Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. Isa.65:12

Wake up.

 

[rogerg]

I believe its appropriate to pray for the salvation, conversion of Gods elect. We may not know who they are, but God does, and we will be praying according to His Will.

I agree but that's not how I understood her question. I thought she was implying that praying can cause someone
to become saved, or to influence God about it in some way. That is an entirely different proposition than what I understood your point to be. Do I misunderstand?

 

[journeyman]

Capricious? Definitely not! God owes no one an explanation or a justification as to why He saves some and others not.

God doesn't owe us anything, but it's just that he want's us to know him. He doesn't want us to believe things about him that aren't true. So,

Isaiah 1:20
.....And if ye refuse.....

God, through His offering, made payment for and thereby purchased those He chose to save. You may not like that

I certainly don't like your view of how Jesus purchased us with payment.

He chose to do it that way, but nevertheless, it was His divine right, prerogative and good pleasure to do so.
It appears you think your wisdom greater than God's.

First off, your interpretation of the following passages have nothing to do with Gods' wisdom.

[Rom 9:16-18, 21 KJV]
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Yes and many will to be forgiven, while continuing in sin, but God said,

to this man will I look ,even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2

Now, do you understand that people can admit before God of their own free will, that they're nothing without him?

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. ...

Right. God sent a slave with a demand, to a man who was worshipped as a god. Think about that.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Now read Jer.18:3-10, which explains how God the Potter molds people. From this knowledge of God, he gave Pharaoh ample time and reason to repent of his own free will.

 

[rogerg]

I will confirm this. I find my self asking the Lord on a daily, for many different people (co-workers) to grant them His gift of faith. Take out the stoney heart and put in a heart of flesh. I find myself doing this more when I do not have a chance to share the Gospel with them. I am a firm believer that my actions and words are a true testimony of Christ, especially if anyone knows I am a child of God.

I went of on a short tangent.

If you don't mind me replying, as I said to brightfame52, I believe she was saying that prayer can cause someone to become saved, or to influence God in some way. Faith itself only comes as a fruit of the Spirit and only after becoming saved/born again by God. Unless someone is elect then saved, born again, they will never be given that faith. If one is of the elect then those things must happen to them, if not of the elect, then those things can never happen to them.
I think it goes back to what I always say: Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not.

 

[electedbyhim]

If you don't mind me replying, as I said to brightfame52, I believe she was saying that prayer can cause someone to become saved, or to influence God in some way. Faith itself only comes as a fruit of the Spirit and only after becoming saved/born again by God. Unless someone is elect then saved, born again, they will never be given that faith. If one is of the elect then those things must happen to them, if not of the elect, then those things can never happen to them.
I think it goes back to what I always say: Christ alone is the Saviour, we are not.

I also have a hard time understanding her posts. I have read your posts as well and did not think you meant we should not pray for people to be saved.

No one knows who the elect are except the Lord

No worries.

Grace and peace to you

 

[rogerg]

God doesn't owe us anything, but it's just that he want's us to know him. He doesn't want us to believe things about him that aren't true. So,

Isaiah 1:20
.....And if ye refuse.....

"And if ye refuse": God always proclaims both blessing and curse. Nevertheless, they chose the curse.

I certainly don't like your view of how Jesus purchased us with payment.

How then did Jesus pay for sin and save those who are to be saved?

First off, your interpretation of the following passages have nothing to do with Gods' wisdom.

They do. God's wisdom determined those whom He would save.

to this man will I look ,even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2

That man is Jesus.

Now, do you understand that people can admit before God of their own free will, that they're nothing without him?

No, they can't:

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Right. God sent a slave with a demand, to a man who was worshipped as a god. Think about that.

I don't follow you

Now read Jer.18:3-10, which explains how God the Potter molds people. From this knowledge of God, he gave Pharaoh ample time and reason to repent of his own free will.

God molds only those who are of His elect. See 1 Co 2:14 above
Pharaoh's "free will" led him to his destruction, his army destruction, and his nation destruction and that destruction
was God's purpose. For this purpose, God had raised-up Pharaoh

The free will of the unsaved is incapable of free-willing to good. If and when anyone free-wills to good, is
only because they've become saved otherwise, they remain under Satan.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, if a person has free will, than what are praying too? God won't violate a person's free will, it would be better to try to convince the person yourself through talking to them.

If the calvinist is right, it doesn’t matter. But fortunately they aren’t and it does. The Devil demanded to have Peter, but Jesus prayed for him. Why in either case if no one violates free will? It’s because free will means just that, FREE choice. Each man has the power to choose between options.We pray, among other things, that the option God offers becomes attractive to them or that their need for Christ becomes real and they choose Him.

You don't understand Calvinism. God doesn't just predestine the end - the person's salvation, but the means to that end.

Why do you think I don’t understand that? I understand it better than most calvinists as they generally refuse to see what they theology means.

Your description, for example, means it’s all a game where we are all pawns just manipulated through life. The “means to the end” was determined before birth. And those condemned to hell are equally manipulated with no means to a good end from a predetermined source.

That probably includes the exact sperm and egg that fertilized to make you. Then every thing and second of your life, including prayers of others.

Life is then meaningless. We just live out a preprogrammed set of experiences being deeply deceived as to the freedom we feel. It’s all a cruel game. The pain we suffer from choices we made are really choices your god made for us. No hope. No way out. No learning. No wisdom.

This, I bet, you do not understand.

The alternative is the following. God has particular ways He acts in individual lives and with mankind in general. Each man has freedom to make choices among options. Those options vary greatly from person to person. God calls each man at some point drawing them, but they have freedom to respond as they choose. This, I know, is scarier than the relatively childish view that God controls those choices, as it put the ball into our court, as it were.

But this responsibility we carry is what makes life worth living. It’s not a game. We aren’t manipulated from above. But we are deeply loved. It’s deeply satisfying.

 

[Niblo]

If the calvinist is right, it doesn’t matter. But fortunately they aren’t and it does. The Devil demanded to have Peter, but Jesus prayed for him. Why in either case if no one violates free will? It’s because free will means just that, FREE choice. Each man has the power to choose between options.We pray, among other things, that the option God offers becomes attractive to them or that their need for Christ becomes real and they choose Him.

Why do you think I don’t understand that? I understand it better than most calvinists as they generally refuse to see what they theology means.

Your description, for example, means it’s all a game where we are all pawns just manipulated through life. The “means to the end” was determined before birth. And those condemned to hell are equally manipulated with no means to a good end from a predetermined source.

Life is then meaningless. We just live out a preprogrammed set of experiences being deeply deceived as to the freedom we feel. It’s all a cruel game. The pain we suffer from choices we made are really choices your god made for us. No hope. No way out. No learning. No wisdom.

This, I bet, you do not understand.

The alternative is the following. God has particular ways He acts in individual lives and with mankind in general. Each man has freedom to make choices among options. Those options vary greatly from person to person. God calls each man at some point drawing them, but they have freedom to respond as they choose. This, I know, is scarier than the relatively childish view that God controls those choices, as it put the ball into our court, as it were.

But this responsibility we carry is what makes life worth living. It’s not a game. We aren’t manipulated from above. But we are deeply loved. It’s deeply satisfying.

Beautiful.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And intricately woven in the depths of the earth;

Well, we weren’t formed in the depths of the earth but it’s pretty easy for God to be aware of a developing fetus.

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

And then there is this verse?

“Do not be excessively wicked, and do not be a fool. Why should you die before your time?”

Hmmm, one can die BEFORE the day written in the book that one would die!!! Ah, free choice means we can miss the plan!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Beautiful!

Thanks Niblo, means a lot to me today and blesses me. There are those here who’ve told me that me that my writings make them sick, they are so disgusted. Your words are soothing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The land was part of the promise, I don't deny that. But the NT teaches us that it was more than that.

Rom 4:13 For the promise that he would inherit the world (kosmos) did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Vincent's Word Studies on Romans 4:13:
“Paul here takes the Jewish conception of the universal dominion of the Messianic theocracy prefigured by the inheritance of Canaan, divests it of its Judaistic element, and raises it to a christological truth.”

Just like when Eve heard God say to the serpent that her seed would bruise the serpents head, she probably thought it would be Cain, not somebody 4,000 years in the future.

First you say they knew it was more than land and then you say they didn’t know (because you can only quote the NT.)

I’m very sure Eve thought no such thing. They spoke directly to God. They would have known what His words meant. They wouldn’t have foolishly speculated but asked directly.