Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Dorothy Mae]

Where in all those texts does it say they were unregenerate? Oh, it doesn't. You just assume they were because of your belief that nobody was regenerate before the resurrection. What if you are wrong?

How do people become regenerate bypassing Jesus? None of those in the OT could be “born again” as there wasn’t yet Christ? So is it your position man can become regenerate without Christ as they were?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When the Holy Spirit quickens one into New Life, they seek the Lord.

Except that’s not what the Bible says happens. You have to make that up.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

When Jesus told the Pharisee Nicodemus that he must be born again, why did Jesus expect Nicodemus to know this purely from the Old Testament?

Joh 3:10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?

Doesn’t mean Jesus had expected Nicodemus already was. Jesus wasn’t explaining something common in the OT. He was moving the man’s thinking to the new wine predicted but not then fulfilled.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

dorthymae



Thats not true, and you have not one scripture that declares that. Many had Faith Heb 11:1 in the OT and that Faith is the Fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, they in the OT had the same Spirit of Faith as the NT Saints 2 Cor 4:13

We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Besides that in order to be a saint, you must be born again, and there were saints in the OT Deut 33:3

Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words

1 Sam 2:9

He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Ps 16:3
But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

Ps 31:23

O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

How can a unregenerate spiritually dead person Love the Lord ? By the Spirit in them, Love is fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

Ps 34:9

O fear the Lord, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Man naturally does not fear God Rom 3:18


There is no fear of God before their eyes.

God gives a new heart to fear Him Jer 32 39

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:


Thats against the scripture Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

So in your theology, Jesus is unnecessary for regeneration, right? Just having faith, right?

 

[Whatever]

So in your theology, Jesus is unnecessary for regeneration, right? Just having faith, right?

My 2 cents. Jesus was born Holy. He was human but not spiritually dead like all sons of Adam.

Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

The Greek word hagios is also translated saint or saints and occurs 229 times in the King James.
hagios implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)

This is part of why Paul refers to Jesus as the second man or second Adam. (my opinion)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My 2 cents. Jesus was born Holy. He was human but not spiritually dead like all sons of Adam.

Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

The Greek word hagios is also translated saint or saints and occurs 229 times in the King James.
hagios implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)

This is part of why Paul refers to Jesus as the second man or second Adam. (my opinion)

None of that answers my question. I gave many scriptures where people sought the Lord. All were before Jesus’ time. If you say that they were nevertheless regenerated, then you must believe Jesus isn’t necessary for regeneration. People are or were regenerated without Jesus.

Either that or admit the theology does not reflect scripture.

 

[Whatever]

How do people become regenerate bypassing Jesus? None of those in the OT could be “born again” as there wasn’t yet Christ? So is it your position man can become regenerate without Christ as they were?

It is the Spirit who quickens people. What do you mean bypassing Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is the Spirit who quickens people. What do you mean bypassing Christ.

Those who sought the Lord, many many people, did not have the Spirit quicken them first. The HS wasn’t yet given. Pentecost had not occurred.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Man has the ability to seek God according to the scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

We seem to have the ability to look beyond ourselves for something that we believe must be there.

Hey Peter, yes man by nature does seek a god, just not the True God of Israel. But yes men do have an innate compulsion for gods. Paul said in Acts 17 22-23
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Paul said that jews were ignorant to the True God Rom 10:1-3
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The True God must supernaturally reveal Himself to man, otherwise we are idolaters. Matt 11:27

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

 

[brightfame52]

Except that’s not what the Bible says happens. You have to make that up.

Of course thats what the scripture teaches, you just dont understand the scriptures. The scripture plainly states man by nature doesnt seek or understand God, thats the True God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hey Peter, yes man by nature does seek a god, just not the True God of Israel. But yes men do have an innate compulsion for gods. Paul said in Acts 17 22-23
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

The story behind it is that they were actually showing respect for the One true God. And the belief that man has the desire to seek false gods but never the One true God is absurd and insulting to God. It is as if God made man unable to find truth although he longs for it. Paul was confirming that man can seek the One true God and he, Paul, was there to declare that God to them. That passage works against your position.

 

[brightfame52]

So in your theology, Jesus is unnecessary for regeneration, right? Just having faith, right?

No thats not what I said, thats your false accusation of me. I said men were regenerated in the OT, they had faith the fruit of the Spirit, and they were sanctified Saints. Sanctification is the fruit of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Sanctification means set apart, and God set apart people in the OT Ps 4:3

But know that the Lord hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the Lord will hear when I call unto him.

 

[brightfame52]

The story behind it is that they were actually showing respect for the One true God. And the belief that man has the desire to seek false gods but never the One true God is absurd and insulting to God. It is as if God made man unable to find truth although he longs for it. Paul was confirming that man can seek the One true God and he, Paul, was there to declare that God to them. That passage works against your position.

No they didnt know the One True God. They were ignorant of Him, God sent Paul to them to make Him known.

Yes man has a desire to seek false gods, but no desire to seek the One and True God. Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No thats not what I said, thats your false accusation of me. I said men were regenerated in the OT, they had faith the fruit of the Spirit, and they were sanctified Saints. Sanctification is the fruit of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Sanctification means set apart, and God set apart people in the OT Ps 4:3

But know that the Lord hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the Lord will hear when I call unto him.

I ask then again, is Jesus unnecessary for regeneration? He was not there in the OT and the HS had not yet been given. Btw, you have to make that up as NO WHERE in the scripture does it say that those men, lots and lots of them, were regenerated before they could see God. Where does the scripture say that he set those who sought him apart. And stop quoting the NT. We are talking OT and you need to prove your point from those scriptures.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No they didnt know the One True God. They were ignorant of Him, God sent Paul to them to make Him known.

Yes man has a desire to seek false gods, but no desire to seek the One and True God. Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They knew there was a One True God. There are men in the OT that had a desire to seek God. They were not regenerated before hand. They just sought Him.

I know you are a Calvinist and I know you will insist despite all scripture upon that theology. This is pointless on one level. But there are others who might read this and see that the Calvinist position does not reflect the scripture. So I point out lot s and lots of verse where it says men sought the Lord. There are even more. No regeneration mentioned. None at all. But you have to invent it and change the scripture instead of changing your thinking. The scripture does not change your mind, you change the scripture. This I cannot prevent but I can point it out for those not so stuck in Calvinism but just considering it.

 

[Peterlag]

Hey Peter, yes man by nature does seek a god, just not the True God of Israel. But yes men do have an innate compulsion for gods. Paul said in Acts 17 22-23
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Paul said that jews were ignorant to the True God Rom 10:1-3
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The True God must supernaturally reveal Himself to man, otherwise we are idolaters. Matt 11:27

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. We have no idea what we are looking for until we have that.

 

[brightfame52]

dorthymae

I ask then again, is Jesus unnecessary for regeneration?

Again ? You never asked me that question, you made a unjust unfounded statement about me. Didnt you ?

 

[brightfame52]

I ask then again, is Jesus unnecessary for regeneration? He was not there in the OT and the HS had not yet been given. Btw, you have to make that up as NO WHERE in the scripture does it say that those men, lots and lots of them, were regenerated before they could see God. Where does the scripture say that he set those who sought him apart. And stop quoting the NT. We are talking OT and you need to prove your point from those scriptures.

As far as God is concerned, Christ was slain from the foundation Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And The Spirit wasnt given historically as on the day of pentecost, but He regenerated individuals and gave them Faith in the OT. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit.

The prophets had Christ in them, they were born again 1 Pet 1:11


Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The Spirit of Christ is spoken of in the NT Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are the same.

Zacharias tecnically an OT Saint because Christ had not died yet, was filled with the Holy Ghost Lk 1:67

And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Now how was this so being as you say, the Holy Ghost had not yet been given ?

Man naturally doesnt seek after God, in fact doesnt understand God, the True God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[brightfame52]

dorthymae

They knew there was a One True God.

No they didnt, the believed in many gods. They were polytheist , they heard of the God of the jews, but He to them wasnt the One and Only God. To them Paul said they called Him the unknown God Acts 17:23

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Paul said they ignorantly worship. The word ignorantly/agnoeō means:

1. to be ignorant, not to know
2. not to understand, unknown
3. to err or sin through mistake, to be wrong

This lines up with Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.