Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[brightfame52]

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. We have no idea what we are looking for until we have that.

Peter, correct, its the Born again person who seeks the True God, and its an indication that God is drawing them to Christ Jn 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I believe the New Birth by the Spirit is part of the drawing means to Faith in Christ, being taught of God

 

[Dorothy Mae]

dorthymae



Again ? You never asked me that question, you made a unjust unfounded statement about me. Didnt you ?

Maybe you didn’t see it. Is Jesus necessary for salvation?

 

[brightfame52]

Maybe you didn’t see it. Is Jesus necessary for salvation?

Of course, So now admit you made a unjust comment about me, saying I said something, but knowing i didnt say it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course, So now admit you made a unjust comment about me, saying I said something, but knowing i didnt say it.

Why is Jesus necessary if guys in OT are regenerated without Jesus?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course, So now admit you made a unjust comment about me, saying I said something, but knowing i didnt say it.

I actually asked it fairly often and figured you nevertheless didn’t see it out of charity which I already wrote.

 

[brightfame52]

I actually asked it fairly often and figured you nevertheless didn’t see it out of charity which I already wrote.

Since you wont admit that you unjustly stated that Jesus isnt needed, this discourse is over.

 

[Whatever]

Why is Jesus necessary if guys in OT are regenerated without Jesus?

Jesus is necessary because He is the one who takes away sin.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Those elect who had faith in the OT has their sins "passed over" because Jesus' death and resurrection were so sure that God applied it to them as if Jesus had already paid the cost. So, Jesus' propitiation is retroactive (Influencing or applying to a period prior to enactment.) This goes back all the way to Adam and Eve.

So, if you believe that those who never heard the gospel still end up in Heaven, it will still be because of the atonement of Jesus, not because they were innocent or ignorant or whatever reason a person would make to get them into Heaven. (I've been told it will be because they lived up to what light they had.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus is necessary because He is the one who takes away sin.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Those elect who had faith in the OT has their sins "passed over" because Jesus' death and resurrection were so sure that God applied it to them as if Jesus had already paid the cost. So, Jesus' propitiation is retroactive (Influencing or applying to a period prior to enactment.) This goes back all the way to Adam and Eve.

So, if you believe that those who never heard the gospel still end up in Heaven, it will still be because of the atonement of Jesus, not because they were innocent or ignorant or whatever reason a person would make to get them into Heaven. (I've been told it will be because they lived up to what light they had.)

Thank you. You and I agree on the above. What those before Christ could not experience was regeneration. The promise of a new heart was future for them.

But they nevertheless sought God and many and not seldom. The answer to the OP from the scriptures is YES man can. But this disturbs the Calvinist so scripture is changed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Since you wont admit that you unjustly stated that Jesus isnt needed, this discourse is over.

My experience with Calvinist is rarely positive. There are just too many holes in the theology and a determination to hold to the theology nevertheless. I’m very happy to move on. Already did, just ran across this by accident.

 

[brightfame52]

dorthymae

What those before Christ could not experience was regeneration.

Thats not scriptural. If a person had a heart that feared God they were regenerated because men naturally have no fear of God before their eyes Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

But yet men did fear God way before Christ was incarnated. David said Ps 22:23

Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

Job was given a heart to fear God Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

dorthymae



Thats not scriptural. If a person had a heart that feared God they were regenerated because men naturally have no fear of God before their eyes Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

But yet men did fear God way before Christ was incarnated. David said Ps 22:23

Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

Job was given a heart to fear God Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Where do verses in the OT say that they were regenerated? You need to use OT.

What is scriptural is that God commands man to seek Him and many did. Many. There is never a “wait a minute guys, let me regenerate you so you can.” He simply says “Seek me and you will find me when you search for Me with all YOUR heart.”

I’m afraid your position is unscriptural. He promised INTHE FUTURE to give men new hearts, regenerated, iow.

Make no mistake, I am defending the honor of God who is NOT responsible for man not seeking Him. In your position, it’s God’s fault is people don’t seek Him.

 

[brightfame52]

dorthy

Where do verses in the OT say that they were regenerated? You need to use OT.

I gave you reason. Where do verses in the OT say that men were not regenerated, you need to use OT

 

[Whatever]

What is scriptural is that God commands man to seek Him and many did.

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds.”

Here is a command from God. Were they able to do it?

Deu 30:6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Now, God is going to do it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds.”

Here is a command from God. Were they able to do it?

Yes, they did. Why would God tell them to do that or He’s going to blast them knowing they cannot?

Deu 30:6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Now, God is going to do it.

That is the promise that is fulfilled in Jesus, and the regeneration we can now enjoy changed on the inside which sacrifices could never do.

But notice not people all do. Is that because God refuses to regenerate some, those unlucky ones?

Your theology blames God for men not seeking Him and makes a mere manipulator telling man to do what, for you, only God can do.

What you have to do to maintain this theology is cherry pick out of context a few verses and build on those, which don’t say what you want them to say, ignoring the volume of scripture where people sought God without being regenerated first.

Scripture actually says “you will find me when…….you search for me with all your heart” and not you “will seek me when I regenerate you first so wait for it.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

dorthy


I gave you reason. Where do verses in the OT say that men were not regenerated, you need to use OT

How does one deal with such fallacy? You cannot prove something was done by insisting that the verse neglects to say wasn’t done. But, in fact, regeneration or a new heart was promised with the coming of the Messiah. So it wasn’t done.

It’s a blindness with a strong desire behind it, this”man is unable to seek God.” Just 5 minutes of thinking would dispel it. Man seeks knowledge, understanding, wisdom, all kinds of things but for you not God. Children ask if there’s a Santa and the Easter bunny, not not God. We are naturally curious about many things but for you, never God. Absurd.

 

[Whatever]

Scripture actually says “you will find me when…….you search for me with all your heart”

Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian[a] change his skin or a leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

Sounds like nobody is likely to search for God with their desperately sick heart.

 

[brightfame52]

How does one deal with such fallacy? You cannot prove something was done by insisting that the verse neglects to say wasn’t done. But, in fact, regeneration or a new heart was promised with the coming of the Messiah. So it wasn’t done.

It’s a blindness with a strong desire behind it, this”man is unable to seek God.” Just 5 minutes of thinking would dispel it. Man seeks knowledge, understanding, wisdom, all kinds of things but for you not God. Children ask if there’s a Santa and the Easter bunny, not not God. We are naturally curious about many things but for you, never God. Absurd.

You have been given verses why, you ignore them, plus you cant provide any verses that states exactly what you said.

Now Rom 3:11 states that man naturally does not seek after God

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian[a] change his skin or a leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

Sounds like nobody is likely to search for God with their desperately sick heart.

And yet the Bible calls some people righteous and God says he found something good in someone. But let me ask you, does murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness and slander come out of your heard and your friend's hearts and family? Do you know that the ten commands were sometimes kept by some people? Do you know that people are different and make different choices? Read in the verse in Jeremiah. Who is he talking about? People who "are accustomed to doing evil." Can you see the difference between those kinds of people and yourself. Are you accustomed to doing evil? Is your spouse accustomed to doing evil?

The scripture you present do not describe all mankind. The scriptures I present that show that man can seek God you have to ignore. Of course that is your choice. You can cheery pick out the scriptures that do not say what you want them to say and ignore the ones you do not like.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The logical problem is this. If a position is NO ONE can do XYZ from themselves (in the case seek God), I only need one description of someone who did to disprove this. I gave several scriptures and there are more. Now faced with this, one can stubbornly cling to one's theology. Or one can consider changing the mind in line with the scriptures. That latter choice is costly as it required humility and a love of truth more than a love of being right. It seems to be the more common choice because, without regeneration, everyone is proud. A love of the truth is indeed something one receives, the ability to seek truth and / or God, is not.

 

[brightfame52]

Man not seeking the one and only True God is an evidence that man naturally is dead in sin, that is dead to God, separated from the life of God alienated from God, this so much so, man has no desire for the True God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.