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Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

So how did Noah and Abram find God?
By God first seeking them out. God seeks out His Sheep first Ezk 34:11

For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

Lk 15:4-6

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
 
By God first seeking them out. God seeks out His Sheep first Ezk 34:11

For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

Lk 15:4-6

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
And how does this answer my questions about why? Why these three men? Job, Abram, Noah. WHY?
 
Your inability to understand is not a failure on my part
You are the one making definitive statements. It is your job to defend. Not my job to understand. Also I don't disagree with you. But you have to be able to defend you position.

And there is that pesky Prov 1:28. No answer? Come on. Do your job.
 
So not from the Bible. (Failure #4)
No answer to Prov 1:28 (Failure #5)

You are not defending your position very well. Come on man. You can do better.

Just have to answer my questions. I don't even have a preconceived idea of the answer. Just read the stories, give your answer, and give your references. Easy.
rogerg has answered your question three different times, but apparently it is not the answer you are looking for or one that you will accept. Quit badgering him for an answer that he already gave you and ask you to go back and read what he said.
 
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And how does this answer my questions about why? Why these three men? Job, Abram, Noah. WHY?
You have been told over and over why, because God chose them for His purpose as these three men kept faith in God.

There is your answer now move on.
 
You are the one making definitive statements. It is your job to defend. Not my job to understand. Also I don't disagree with you. But you have to be able to defend you position.

And there is that pesky Prov 1:28. No answer? Come on. Do your job.
No one needs to defend their statements, especially when they give you the scriptures to read to show their understanding. It's up to you to understand the scriptures.
 
So, complete failure to defend your position. Sad.
The sad part is you badgering others that have already given you the answers you have asked. Be slow to read and think about your replies before you post them.
 
Lets continue the thought that man by nature is dead to God. When Adam sinned, with his posterity in his loins, they sinned with him and became dead Rom 5:15

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Dead here, though it may include physical death, primarily refers to spiritual death/dead !

Nothing a dead person can do until made alive unto God, not even seek God, the True God that is.
 
Lets continue the thought that man by nature is dead to God. When Adam sinned, with his posterity in his loins, they sinned with him and became dead Rom 5:15

Definitely. But... is it possible that the transgression of Adam and Eve caused the Law (Law in concept) to be brought into existence which made all who would ever be born subject to its judgments? Even the name of the tree they ate of tells us much about it: it is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Only Law is able to demarcate good from evil and gives a knowledge of both to provide distinction and contrast between the two (good and evil); that is, the law gives "Knowledge". As a part of it, and inherent to the nature of man, is a desire to measure themselves and justify themselves by the achieving of it. Until law was brought to life, there was nothing to measure against nor to try to achieve, nor to be judged by.

In v13 we are told that sin was present in the world even before the transgression of Adam and Eve, but until that transgression, though present, sin could not be imputed.

[Rom 5:13 KJV]
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

In principle, Paul was in the loins of Adam (as were we all) and thereby alive before the Law, but upon the transgression of Adam and Eve, he, and we, died spiritually. The commandment of Gen 2:17, was God's commandment not to eat from the tree, intended to warn/protect from the consequences of law. The tree is symbolic of Satan himself: its fruit, his, is the law.

[Gen 2:17 KJV]
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Rom 7:8 KJV]
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
[Rom 7:9 KJV]
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

We are informed that Satan was as a tree in the garden of Eden: the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

[Eze 31:9-11 KJV]
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that [were] in the garden of God, envied him.
10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;
11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.

Notice in v56, that death came through and by the Law and we also know that death itself began by the eating of the fruit of the tree, so sin and death are inexorably linked through law.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those who promulgate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil -- Satan's fruit-- will be destroyed
along with Satan because they (as were all Christians at some point), the offspring of Satan.

[Mat 7:19 KJV]
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Christ, through His faithfulness, His faith, and His offering, takes those He saves from Satan's law: the law of the tree and its fruit.

[Rom 6:14-15 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The "one" (of v18) is Adam but notice nevertheless that the "offense" came upon ALL to condemnation; that is, that the condemnation had already been imputed to all even before their birth: all ever born (those of v19) were "made sinners" before birth since it came because of Adam's action.

[Rom 5:18 KJV]
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
[Rom 5:19 KJV]
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice that in v20, the "law" was not always in existence for man, but that Satan, Adam, and Eve, caused law to enter.

[Rom 5:18, 20-21 KJV]
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. ...
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christ took the ordinances -- the ordinances meaning the law -- and nailed them to the cross.

[Col 2:13-14 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So, since death came from/because of the law, law's condemnation of sin and death (of v2 below), must be by one's attempt to achieve justification before God relative to law.

[Rom 8:2-3 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Coming full circle then, by the eating of the fruit, Satan, Adam and Eve brought law to life, that, by the existence of law immediately condemned everyone ever to be born -- however, for those so chosen -- Christ Himself, by Himself, removed them from law and its condemnation and judgment. Consequently, those who are left seeking justification by law, are following Satan by the works of law rather than of Christ who of Himself freed us from law.

[Mat 7:17-20 KJV]
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I realize this post is probably very confusing as I am not the best of writers, didn't present things in the best possible way, and tried to pack a lot of stuff into it, but really wanted to get it out there. I'll reread and try to clarify.
 
roger

Definitely. But... is it possible that the transgression of Adam and Eve caused the Law (Law in concept) to be brought into existence which made all who would ever be born subject to its judgments?

Roger I believe the law was brought in by the command of the Lord God given to Adam Gen 2:15-17

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam you transgressed that command, and all for whom he represented.
 
roger

In v13 we are told that sin was present in the world even before the transgression of Adam and Eve, but until that transgression, though present, sin could not be imputed.

I dont think you read that quite right roger, Rom 5:13

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Paul is saying until the law [law of moses] sin was in the world, thats why folk died as transgressors before the law of moses was enacted . Yet a Law had been broken before siani moses law, thats why men died from the time of Adam unto moses. The Law was when God commanded man or Adam this :

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

I also believe thats when man transgressed the covenant spoken of here Hos 6:7

But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

The word there for men is adam

So even though there is not much detail revealed, it seems that Gen 2:15-17 had a covenant involved.

Arthur pink deals with it here:

He calls it the adamic covenant, pretty interesting !
 
Roger I believe the law was brought in by the command of the Lord God given to Adam Gen 2:15-17

Thank for you reply, brightframe52. It's a very interesting subject and forms the basis of the entire Bible.
Anyway, I'll work through your replies with multiple posts if that's ok - but please feel free to reply as convenient for you should you choose to reply. Please don't interpret any of my posts as being critical of, or derogatory to, your point of view in any way should we see things differently, for they aren't/won't be intended as such - and I appreciate your doing so and deeply respect your understanding of the Bible - I am just attempting to probe more deeply into the Bible and harmonize its verses as they pertain to Christ. And believe me, I always leave open the distinct possibility that I could easily be wrong, so I appreciate your feedback.

Anyway, regarding the above, were the law given in/by 2:15 - 17, then the actions of Adam and Eve
where they realized they were naked and tried to clothe themselves with fig leaves, would have occurred much sooner - before eating of the fruit of the tree not after because they were naked before and after the commandment of 2:15 - 17 was given, yet without sin or shame. The awareness of nakedness didn't dawn on them until after eating. So, whatever caused them to become ashamed had to have occurred after the eating, not before. In order for them to become aware of their nakedness -- that nakedness was wrong -- and to become ashamed by it, required law be manifested that made a sin of nakedness in order for it to be evident to them, which law didn't previously exist as evidenced by them not having been ashamed-- for without law, there could be no shame, because they would not have violated anything. While this is only one example, it holds true for all sin from Adam and Eve unto the end of time - that it is necessary for law to be present for sin to exist, so sin came into being because law came into being, from the eating of Satan's fruit by Adam and Eve.

[Gen 2:25 KJV]
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

[Gen 3:6, 7 KJV]
6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. ...

In verse 11, God knew the eating of the tree brought law that had made them aware of their nakedness. The answer to God's inquiry of verse 11, which He of course knew, was that it was law that told them of their nakedness, because the Bible does not inform us of anything outside of law being there to give them that knowledge.

[Gen 3:10-11 KJV]
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

In verse 22, we are told that by eating of the tree, man came to know both good and evil. Again, the name of the tree
is the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Without law, good and evil cannot be known.

[Gen 3:22 KJV]
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now however, with Christ's offering completed, at the highest possible spiritual level, only two laws exist with eternal spiritual consequence: The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of sin and death. Everyone falls into one or the other. All laws that are based upon one's attempt to achieve eternal life were spawned from, and are subjective to, the law of sin and death (or the law of law), and thereby can only bring eternal spiritual death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus on the other hand, is the polar opposite of the law of sin and death in that it, in and of itself, and alone, is that which brings forth eternal spiritual life through Christ.

Hope this makes sense and thanks, Roger.
 
rogerg

I'll work through your replies with multiple posts if that's ok

Okay No problem

Anyway, regarding the above, were the law given in/by 2:15 - 17, then the actions of Adam and Eve
where they realized they were naked and tried to clothe themselves with fig leaves, would have occurred much sooner - before eating of the fruit of the tree not after because they were naked before and after the commandment of 2:15 - 17 was given, yet without sin or shame. The awareness of nakedness didn't dawn on them until after eating. So, whatever caused them to become ashamed had to have occurred after the eating, not before. In order for them to become aware of their nakedness -- that nakedness was wrong -- and to become ashamed by it, required law be manifested that made a sin of nakedness in order for it to be evident to them, which law didn't previously exist as evidenced by them not having been ashamed

Hmm, its hard for me to fanthom that being naked was sinful, or there being a law against it. At best I think it just showed that they lost their innocence before God. Jesus told the some in the Laodicean church that they were naked Rev 3:17-18

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see

You know small little children who are innocent[yet still sinners] have no shame about being naked. Also consider that God created them naked.
 
rogerg
[Gen 2:25 KJV]
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

[Gen 3:6, 7 KJV]
6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. ...

In verse 11, God knew the eating of the tree brought law that had made them aware of their nakedness. The answer to God's inquiry of verse 11, which He of course knew, was that it was law that told them of their nakedness, because the Bible does not inform us of anything outside of law being there to give them that knowledge.

[Gen 3:10-11 KJV]
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

In verse 22, we are told that by eating of the tree, man came to know both good and evil. Again, the name of the tree
is the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Without law, good and evil cannot be known.

Roger I believe God created Adam and Eve sinful from the beginning, and the command not eat of that certain tree would in the by and by be broken, it was inevitable, because they were created for a redemptive purpose in Christ. Before they were created, Jesus Christ in the Eternal Purpose of God stood as their Surety in what I believe to be the everlasting covenant of Grace Eph 3:9-11

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Grace was given and purpose to the elect in Christ before the world began, before Adam was created 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

So though naturally upright and innocent, Adam and Eve still had a sinful nature. Also when they sinned, I believe they understood evil, that they were evil. But this is when God discovered to them the Higher Good that was coming into the world as the seed of the woman, the Lord Jesus Christ, and believing the the first parents were elect, the true righteousness from the coming seed of the woman was revealed.
 
Roger I believe God created Adam and Eve sinful from the beginning, and the command not eat of that certain tree would in the by and by be broken, it was inevitable, because they were created for a redemptive purpose in Christ. Before they were created, Jesus Christ in the Eternal Purpose of God stood as their Surety in what I believe to be the everlasting covenant of Grace Eph 3:9-11

Hi brightfame52 - I didn't want to just leave your post hanging out there, so I wanted to let you know that I will
probably be able to reply to it tomorrow (Monday) if that's okay, Roger
 
Hi brightfame52 - I didn't want to just leave your post hanging out there, so I wanted to let you know that I will
probably be able to reply to it tomorrow (Monday) if that's okay, Roger
How you doing ? Thats fine, thanks for the reply !
 
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