Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[GodsGrace]

roger



The elect legally have always been free from the law of sin and death, for they became dead to the law by the body of Christ, simply meaning His death Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

However the elect dont realize this in their unregenerate state, they like others are in bondage to the law. But once they are regenerated and receive the good news of the Gospel, then they are experientially freed from that bondage and then begin to grow in the knowledge of the liberty they have from Christ from the Law and its curse Gal 5:1

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. I believe this is what Rom 8:2 is speaking of !

The elect have ALWAYS been free from the law of sin and death.

What do you mean by ALWAYS?

 

[rogerg]

Actually the Law existed prior to the eating, so when they ate they transgressed the law God had given them

brightfame52, lol - wasn't this the point of departure between us?
I call it a commandment I guess you could call it a law, but it was not the law - obviously it was present prior to the eating. In either event, however, the law of sin and death was brought forth by the eating of the tree, which law is from and by Satan, not God: its fruit reveals itself present in an individual by his desire to work for salvation. It was that law, not the law, that incurred judgment upon mankind.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was either satan himself (which is what I believe) or was by satan, but not from God. This is because God had made only the trees in the garden that were good for food. Since God warned them not to eat from it as it would bring spiritual death, that tree would obviously not be good for food, and therefore, not from God.
[Gen 2:9 KJV] 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I've posted these verses before, but I'll do so again because I think they can be helpful in demonstrating that the eating of the tree is what brought to life the law of sin and death. Sin was not imputed to them after God gave them the commandment not to eat even though they were naked yet without shame. This is demonstrated by the fact that they did not attempt to cover themselves with fig leaves after the commandment was given. However, after the eating they did so, because by the eating, they received the knowledge of good and evil, the fruit of which is the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is the law in the verses below which caused/causes sin to be imputed - that is why its name is the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

[Rom 5:12-13 KJV]
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I can agree with this, but the elect I believe were never legally guilty before God, They became experientially guilty because they lost their innocence and became transgressors and in need of restoration, and dead to God. Remember for them Christ had already stood as their surety before the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

When I read the verse below, it seems at least a possibility to me that Paul was under judgment because we are informed that he was under the law of sin and death until Christ freed him by placing him under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Since we all reside under one law or the other (that is, there is no third law), then were he always under the law of life (being not guilty as you say), there would have been no need that Christ free him. But I guess it could come down to a question of timing.

[Rom 8:2 KJV]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

o get on the right track we will be on the wrong track quite often, as long as the foundation is right, there is hope we will be lead into the truth. Christ must be that foundation, and to have that right is the gift of God.

Yep, I definitely agree, Brightfame52

 

[brightfame52]

jerry

and just what would the different perspectives ?

Jerry I gave roger a article to read that kinda explains what I am talking about. Here it is for you to read if you are interested, and we can discuss it. But I rather not discuss it on this thread

When Are God's People Justified in His Sight? - Bill Parker

Obviously, this article concerns the issue of the timing of the justification of sinners before God, and this automatically concerns the timing of the imputation of the sins of God&rsquo

www.pristinegrace.org

 

[brightfame52]

Thanks, brightfame52 - a very persuasive article. I will need to ponder it further though, as there is a lot to it. I will need reread (probably multiple times) to fully comprehend it.
Thanks again

Im Thankful to God He gave you reading grace my friend

 

[jerry63935]

jerry


Jerry I gave roger a article to read that kinda explains what I am talking about. Here it is for you to read if you are interested, and we can discuss it. But I rather not discuss it on this thread

When Are God's People Justified in His Sight? - Bill Parker

Obviously, this article concerns the issue of the timing of the justification of sinners before God, and this automatically concerns the timing of the imputation of the sins of God&rsquo

www.pristinegrace.org

look justification is the very act of forgiveness/declared righteous/ just as if we had never sinned . in the book of romans we are justified by faith grace and the blood. they very second were saved we are forgiven our sins are remembered NO MORE. plz understand i dont need to read when i am justified. when i have my Bible .

iam not Calvinist i dont agree with it. if i was to read it i would post what why i dont agree . i looked through the article he has not said anything different than what i have. other than he has throw in a twist of Calvinism.. so he can make the scriptures what he wants. when i got saved i knew nothing about Calvinism or any thing else.. i can tell when the preacher gave the altar call. God spoke to me a lost man said its know or never. i also realize that you think i am wrong . i dont care

 

[brightfame52]

roger

brightfame52, lol - wasn't this the point of departure between us?
I call it a commandment I guess you could call it a law, but it was not the law

Yes I believe it was the Law, but just verbalized differently, I mean you see the consequences. Just like a seed, its a small grain, but yet it contains much more in it. When God gave that commandment, I believe the ten were in it.

obviously it was present prior to the eating. In either event, however, the law of sin and death was brought forth by the eating of the tree, which law is from and by Satan, not God:

You do know that satan is a servant of God merely carrying out Gods purposes ? God had the primary purpose for sin and death entering into His creation

its fruit reveals itself present in an individual by his desire to work for salvation. It was that law, not the law, that incurred judgment upon mankind.

You may need to explain this a littel more, because I believe Adams sin brought Judgment Rom 5:16,18


And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This is because God had made only the trees in the garden that were good for food. Since God warned them not to eat from it as it would bring spiritual death, that tree would obviously not be good for food, and therefore, not from God.
[Gen 2:9 KJV] 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Hmm, well the forbidden tree appeared to be good for food and plesant to the eye Gen 3:6
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And it appeared to be edible fruit

I believe right now God made every tree in the garden, but because He is God, and man was His creature, a law was imposed.

Thats my thinking right now !

 

[rogerg]

Yes I believe it was the Law, but just verbalized differently, I mean you see the consequences. Just like a seed, its a small grain, but yet it contains much more in it. When God gave that commandment, I believe the ten were in it.

Okay but keep in mind that assuming that the unsaid (in the Bible) is implied even though it hasn't been said or happened, can be dangerous and subject to misinterpretation. When/where something is said in the Bible is as significant as what is said.

The admonition we have been given is that only that what is written in scripture itself is of God.

[2Ti 3:16 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You do know that satan is a servant of God merely carrying out Gods purposes ? God had the primary purpose for sin and death entering into His creation

Hmmm, I guess no, I don't. Satan had his own free will and by it chose to rebel against God: iniquity was found in him. To have been "found" means that his action in the garden was his own and not the result of God's bidding or influence. I believe this iniquity was made visible in his convincing of Adam and Eve to eat of the tree.

[Eze 28:15 KJV] 15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Since it was God's intention to give Adam and Eve a commandment that, had they followed it, would have resulted in life, it could not then also have been God's intention nor plan from the beginning to bring death to them: God advised them of a path unto life which they chose to ignore. Two mutually exclusive motivations on God's part - one to life, one to death - cannot both be true at the same time. If they can be, we are all in a lot of trouble indeed! Adam and Eve were created with free will and the last humans to have it. Therefore, because there was no sin or death, the choice to eat of the tree rests solely upon them. Death came through Satan, not as a punishment of God's

[Rom 7:10 KJV] 10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

ou may need to explain this a littel more, because I believe Adams sin brought Judgment Rom 5:16,18

It did bring judgment, but it was judgement because of Satan's action, not God's. What I wanted to convey was that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is manifested and demonstrated in someone by their trust in, and reliance upon their works for salvation, no matter how slight they may appear. Everyone born, is born under that law just solely by being born, because of the actions of Adam and Eve. The force of that law is what moves them into the following of the gospel of works (Satan's gospel) and of becoming advocates of it (which works are sin), just as those whom God places under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, become advocates of it and are moved unto the following of Christ. The judgment they and everyone encounters is in being dead spiritually through the law of sin and death; that is, Satan enticed Adam and Eve to eat of the tree. They, by eating, brought upon mankind the law of sin and death making mankind its prisoner (Adam and Eve as first victims of their own action). This progression may be more easily perceived with the following:

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan) -> fruit the law of sin and death -> Adam/Eve ->mankind ->sin

Hmm, well the forbidden tree appeared to be good for food and plesant to the eye Gen 3:6
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And it appeared to be edible fruit

I believe right now God made every tree in the garden, but because He is God, and man was His creature, a law was imposed.

But God clearly told them that it was not good for food and not to be eaten, regardless of how Adam and Eve perceived it.
Satan's tree was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God's tree, the tree of life.
All I can say is that as I understand it, the trees that God made had to be good for food and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil definitely beyond question was not good for that, so it couldn't have been placed into the garden by God.
As I previously mentioned, I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was Satan himself.
This is because the Bible often symbolically refers to living beings as trees which ties it back to, and from, the garden of Eden. If the fruit is evil, it can only come from a corrupt tree - the progenitor of corrupt trees is the first corrupt tree which is Satan.

[Eze 31:8-11 KJV]
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that [were] in the garden of God, envied him.
10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;
11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.

[Mat 7:16-20 KJV]
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[GodsGrace]

look justification is the very act of forgiveness/declared righteous/ just as if we had never sinned . in the book of romans we are justified by faith grace and the blood. they very second were saved we are forgiven our sins are remembered NO MORE. plz understand i dont need to read when i am justified. when i have my Bible .

iam not Calvinist i dont agree with it. if i was to read it i would post what why i dont agree . i looked through the article he has not said anything different than what i have. other than he has throw in a twist of Calvinism.. so he can make the scriptures what he wants. when i got saved i knew nothing about Calvinism or any thing else.. i can tell when the preacher gave the altar call. God spoke to me a lost man said its know or never. i also realize that you think i am wrong . i dont care

Brightfame and Roger are carrying on a private conversation.

Don't expect an answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

The elect have ALWAYS been free from the law of sin and death.

What do you mean by ALWAYS?

brightfame52

You only speak to those who agree?
A sign of weakness in your belief system.

 

[Randy]

I think there is enough testimony that the Father enables us to believe in Jesus. That doesn't mean pre chosen before we did good or bad. Jesus testified to put into practice the things He taught. He didn't state we needed a special gift to do so. It speaks to choices made. He also stated the Father "seeks" those who worship in Spirit and truth.

For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.


All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.


I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[rogerg]

Brightfame and Roger are carrying on a private conversation.

Don't expect an answer.

Didn't see anything in his post to reply to, but could have missed it - it seemed more
like a statement to me. Of course, all are welcome to contribute.

 

[GodsGrace]

Didn't see anything in his post to reply to, but could have missed it - it seemed more
like a statement to me. Of course, all are welcome to contribute.

I don't think so Roger.
The overseer of this forum refuses to speak to me.
Apparently loves speaking to you.
Of course, it's not obligatory to speak to someone that posts on a forum
However, it would be nice to know why ,
And it seems to be common courtesy, something an overseer should possess.

 

[GodsGrace]

Didn't see anything in his post to reply to, but could have missed it - it seemed more
like a statement to me. Of course, all are welcome to contribute.

BTW
No reply to Jerry yet by our overseer.
My post was meant for Brightfame.

 

[brightfame52]

randy says

I think there is enough testimony that the Father enables us to believe in Jesus.

How and why randy ?

 

[Randy]

randy says



How and why randy ?

How and why to what?

 

[rogerg]

or Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Disagree

To say it in the reverse, only those who come to Christ who have been drawn of the Father
[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

helkō (Key)

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Again, those, and only those, who come to Jesus are they who have been taught of God and have heard. Since not everyone does come to Jesus (but only according to what God has determined is a coming to Jesus), not everyone has been taught of God. The "all" are only those taught, not everyone. So, one must be taught first, and by that, comes to Jesus. God, not man, must be the one who causes it.

[Jhn 6:45 KJV] 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

My reply is the same as above - it is only they who were given. Since not all obey the word, it must be that
not all were intended nor given, so not applying to all - only to those chosen.
One can only say that Jesus is Lord, if it is said by someone who is of those taught of God - not all are

 

[Randy]

Disagree

To say it in the reverse, only those who come to Christ who have been drawn of the Father
[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

helkō (Key)

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Again, those, and only those, who come to Jesus are they who have been taught of God and have heard. Since not everyone does come to Jesus (but only according to what God has determined is a coming to Jesus), not everyone has been taught of God. The "all" are only those taught, not everyone. So, one must be taught first, and by that, comes to Jesus. God, not man, must be the one who causes it.

[Jhn 6:45 KJV] 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


My reply is the same as above - it is only they who were given. Since not all obey the word, it must be that
not all were intended nor given, so not applying to all - only to those chosen.
One can only say that Jesus is Lord, if it is said by someone who is of those taught of God - not all are

So you are stating the witness of the Spirit is only to a select few?

 

[rogerg]

So you are stating the witness of the Spirit is only to a select few?

Is understood by a select few

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Randy]

Is understood by a select few

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

When the Israelites were lead out of Egypt it was clearly Gods intent to lead them into the land of milk and honey yet many hardened their hearts and died in the desert. Likewise a warning was given from the Apostles in their day for the Israelites not to harden their hearts like their ancestors. The Israelites who perished in the desert were Gods chosen people whom God always made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteousness. I don’t share your belief in chosen to be saved at birth.

 

[rogerg]

I don’t share your belief in chosen to be saved at birth.

Obviously, your prerogative, but just to be accurate - not chosen to be saved at birth, chosen from the foundation
of the world:

[Rev 17:8 KJV] 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.