Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Randy]

Obviously, your prerogative, but just to be accurate - not chosen to be saved at birth, chosen from the foundation
of the world:

[Rev 17:8 KJV] 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Jesus stated warnings to the 7 churches and spoke of those who overcame the world in that he wouldn’t blot out their name from the book of life. That possibility must exist hence the warning is senseless.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus stated warnings to the 7 churches and spoke of those who overcame the world in that he wouldn’t blot out their name from the book of life. That possibility must exist hence the warning is senseless.

Those who overcome the world are those, and only those, whom God has chosen for such and has given to them.

 

[Randy]

Those who overcome the world are those, and only those, whom God has chosen for such and has given to them.

Again there was a warning given which means the names who don't overcome will be blotted out of the book of life.

This isn't before the creation of the world.
Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books

 

[rogerg]

Again there was a warning given which means the names who don't overcome will be blotted out of the book of life.

there are two books: one with the names of all who are ever to be born into this world, the other with the names of those who were chosen of God. As each unsaved person dies, their name is removed from the first book but is not found in the second. Eventually, the chosen, and only the chosen, have their names in both books: both books having exactly the same names - they are only of those whom God has chosen.
BTW I didn't' mean to use first book and second book in terms of timing only distinction.

 

[Randy]

there are two books: one with the names of all who are ever to be born into this world, the other with the names of those who were chosen of God. As each unsaved person dies, their name is removed from the first book but is not found in the second. Eventually, the chosen, and only the chosen, have their names in both books: both books having exactly the same names - they are only of those whom God has chosen.
BTW I didn't' mean to use first book and second book in terms of timing only distinction.

The book of life would have started with Adam which was from the foundation of the world. That's assuming God actually has a need for such a book as I don't think He doesn't already know everything. I didn't read anything about two books nor what you stated was the purpose of each book.

 

[rogerg]

The book of life would have started with Adam which was from the foundation of the world. That's assuming God actually has a need for such a book as I don't think He doesn't already know everything. I didn't read anything about two books nor what you stated was the purpose of each book.

Again, your prerogative. It's not my responsibility to convince you.

 

[Randy]

Again, your prerogative. It's not my responsibility to convince you.

Who is he talking about the righteous or unrighteous?
Pslam 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life
and not be listed with the righteous.

 

[brightfame52]

roger g

Okay but keep in mind that assuming that the unsaid (in the Bible) is implied even though it hasn't been said or happened, can be dangerous and subject to misinterpretation. When/where something is said in the Bible is as significant as what is said.

The admonition we have been given is that only that what is written in scripture itself is of God.

Lol, okay roger, but I have learned through 40 years of bible study and counting, that all truth in the scripture isn't as black and white as we would like for it to be. Sometimes it comes down to spiritual discernment and comparing spiritual things with spiritual things, and so the enlightment of the Spirit is crucial 1 Cor 2:12-13

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

My ultimate guide is to keep the Gospel of Gods Grace pure in making crucila interpretations which aren't spelled out literally in black and white.

So if you set a precedent for others, be sure you keep that standard yourself, or it becomes, the wind blowing.

Hmmm, I guess no, I don't. Satan had his own free will and by it chose to rebel against God: iniquity was found in him. To have been "found" means that his action in the garden was his own and not the result of God's bidding or influence. I believe this iniquity was made visible in his convincing of Adam and Eve to eat of the tree.

[Eze 28:15 KJV] 15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Yes, satan is a servant of Gods serving His Purpose, as all creatures are. Look at the book of Job chapters 1-2

Also see Rev 4:10-11

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Col 1:16-17

16 For by him[Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Believe it or not satan is included in these all things.

Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[rogerg]

Who is he talking about the righteous or unrighteous?

What is your point? Again, it is not my responsibility to convince you

 

[Randy]

What is your point? Again, it is not my responsibility to convince you

It shows all are in the book of life which did begin with Adam at the foundation of the world but not all remain in that book as in blotted out.

I have no need to convince you either.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Since it was God's intention to give Adam and Eve a commandment that, had they followed it, would have resulted in life, it could not then also have been God's intention nor plan from the beginning to bring death to them:

I disagree since Christ before adam was created, stood as the Lamb slain [for the sins of the elect] from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

To the same purport 1 Pet 1:19-20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


Maybe you dont understand that this world, even adam were created for a redemptive purpose through Jesus Christ, the Redeemer !

It was Gods purpose that Adam sin, eat and surely die, so that the redeemer would be made known to him as the seed of the woman.

God advised them of a path unto life which they chose to ignore. Two mutually exclusive motivations on God's part - one to life, one to death - cannot both be true at the same time. If they can be, we are all in a lot of trouble indeed! Adam and Eve were created with free will and the last humans to have it. Therefore, because there was no sin or death, the choice to eat of the tree rests solely upon them. Death came through Satan, not as a punishment of God's

Roger all was according to Gods redemptive purpose in Christ. Adams disobedience, though not forced, was predetermined by God. And yes things of this nature can be both true at the same time, for example, God ordered Pharaoh to let His People Go, that was Gods command to him, yet Gods purpose was to harden his heart to disobey Him. Read that Narrative sometime in Exodus !

And yes death is Gods wages for sin, not satans Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It was God who promised death upon disobedience because it was His Holy Law being violated Gen 2:17


But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[rogerg]

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which are given in Scripture

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Which are given in Scripture

So if you set a precedent for others, be sure you keep that standard yourself, or it becomes, the wind blowing.

I agree, and I realize that sometimes proper interpretation is just a question of degree.
In this case, I think you've assumed too much, however, you think you assumed just enough.
Not sure how to reconcile the differences at this point. Guess we'll just have to leave this particular issue at that.

Yes, satan is a servant of Gods serving His Purpose, as all creatures are. Look at the book of Job chapters 1-2

The book of Job was written after the fall - from the fall everything changed. Before the fall (and only before the fall), was there such a thing as truly free will, which God had let play out - to do that was God's will too.

Believe it or not satan is included in these all things.

If Satan's iniquity is of God's doing, then it couldn't have been said that it was "found" in him, as it would had to have been given to him. Again, free will existed before the fall.

[Eze 28:15 KJV] 15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

It did bring judgment, but it was judgement because of Satan's action, not God's.

hm I thought it was Judgment because of adams action, not satans, lets read Rom 5:16,18

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one[Adam or satan] to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one[adam or satan] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now are you implying that the one in these scriptures are referring to satan and not adam ?

 

[brightfame52]

roger

What I wanted to convey was that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is manifested and demonstrated in someone by their trust in, and reliance upon their works for salvation, no matter how slight they may appear. Everyone born, is born under that law just solely by being born, because of the actions of Adam and Eve.

This is something different, and I can go along with this concept. Every since sin entered the world through Adams disobedience, part of the Judgment of God is that men will always seek righteousness, acceptance with God based upon a principle of law/works. The only cure for this way of thinking is to be be redeemed by Christ, and set free, otherwise it just aint going to happen.

The force of that law is what moves them into the following of the gospel of works (Satan's gospel) and of becoming advocates of it (which works are sin), just as those whom God places under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, become advocates of it and are moved unto the following of Christ. The judgment they and everyone encounters is in being dead spiritually through the law of sin and death; that is, Satan enticed Adam and Eve to eat of the tree. They, by eating, brought upon mankind the law of sin and death making mankind its prisoner (Adam and Eve as first victims of their own action). This progression may be more easily perceived with the following:

I pretty much agree here roger

 

[brightfame52]

roger said

But God clearly told them that it was not good for food and not to be eaten, regardless of how Adam and Eve perceived it.

Roger do you have that specific quote when God told them that the tree was not good for food ? I know He said dont eat from it, but the other part of your comment I may have overlooked"God clearly told them that it was not good for food"

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Satan's tree was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God's tree, the tree of life.

I disagree, I believe both trees belonged solely to God, and He exercised His Sovereignty over them both. In fact every tree belonged to God, every blade of grass, and satan himself belonged to God, he was Gods creature.

All I can say is that as I understand it, the trees that God made had to be good for food and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil definitely beyond question was not good for that, so it couldn't have been placed into the garden by God.

Conjecture, and didn't you caution me about that ? Remember you have to abide by your own rules friend !

As I previously mentioned, I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was Satan himself.

Conjecture

This is because the Bible often symbolically refers to living beings as trees which ties it back to, and from, the garden of Eden. If the fruit is evil, it can only come from a corrupt tree - the progenitor of corrupt trees is the first corrupt tree which is Satan.

[Eze 31:8-11 KJV]
8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that [were] in the garden of God, envied him.
10 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;
11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.

Literally this refers to some king I believe, but it may have symbolical meaning applicable to satan, however satans first residence from which he sinned and fell wasnt in the garden but in heaven I believe, his first estate Jude 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2 Pet 2:4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

[Mat 7:16-20 KJV]
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

i agree with this, has to do with false teachers in the context, True believers will be able to know them by the fruit of their Gospel message and understanding !

Roger where did you get this teaching from ? About satan being the tree in the garden and the like ?

 

[rogerg]

I disagree since Christ before adam was created, stood as the Lamb slain [for the sins of the elect] from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

Christ being slain from the foundation of the world, didn't mean that God would force adam and eve to transgress.
God surely knew they would, and prepared for them and us a Saviour, but that doesn't mean that He
caused the transgression to occur.

Roger all was according to Gods redemptive purpose in Christ. Adams disobedience, though not forced, was predetermined by God. And yes things of this nature can be both true at the same time, for example, God ordered Pharaoh to let His People Go, that was Gods command to him, yet Gods purpose was to harden his heart to disobey Him. Read that Narrative sometime in Exodus !

What is the difference between forced and predetermined?
Again, Pharoah was after the fall. The world before it was a different one than afterwards, with different spiritual conditions and principles between both. We can see this because had they not eaten, they would have lived until they
either ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or until they ate of the tree of life. These principles no longer apply to this world on that basis.

And yes death is Gods wages for sin, not satans Rom 6:23

It is God who kills, but death itself was manifested through, and by, Satan - not by God's predeterminant will to kill them through the eating of the fruit of Satan's tree - for before that happened, there was no death.
Unless, that is, you are saying that it is God who forces someone to sin so that He can kill them?
Is that what you're saying?

 

[rogerg]

Conjecture, and didn't you caution me about that ? Remember you have to abide by your own rules friend !

Wait... didn't the Bible tell us that God only placed into the garden, trees good for food?
Didn't the Bible tell us that God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil because doing so would kill them? So, its fruit couldn't have been good for food
and thus, not from God.
How can that be conjecture? It seems as clear as it can be!
It wasn't God who placed that tree into the garden. Seems to me, respectfully,
that is your assessment which is conjecture as I provided verses stating otherwise.

Conjecture

Well, at least for me, I don't think it is. What happened to the comparing of the spiritual with the spiritual you mentioned previously? The Bible doesn't use words loosely. When we are told in it that good fruit cannot come from a corrupt tree, and vice versa, and by their fruit shall ye know them, then that, biblically speaking, links Satan symbolically to a corrupt tree because the fruit he produced was of the most corrupt kind.
From where else would corrupt fruit originate?

[Mat 7:16, 20 KJV]
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? ...
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[Mat 7:17 KJV]
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Literally this refers to some king I believe, but it may have symbolical meaning applicable to satan, however satans first residence from which he sinned and fell wasnt in the garden but in heaven I believe, his first estate Jude 1:6

Don't think so -- it's referring to Eden, not heaven. Eden is the garden of God. Notice that all the trees
of Eden envied him. So, that verse cannot possibly be referring to trees as being trees, as envy is
not the attribute of a tree.

[Eze 28:13 KJV] 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[Eze 31:9 KJV] 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that [were] in the garden of God, envied him.

Roger where did you get this teaching from ? About satan being the tree in the garden and the like ?

Not sure what you mean by "the like". But I get all of my teaching from the Bible alone.
You don't see that Satan was in the garden?
Where do you think he was when he enticed Eve and Adam? See my reply above
regarding trees and the one above that regarding fruit.

 

[rogerg]

Roger do you have that specific quote when God told them that the tree was not good for food ? I know He said dont eat from it, but the other part of your comment I may have overlooked"God clearly told them that it was not good for food"

As previously posted, the verse that substantiates it is the one that tells us that God only planted into the garden trees
good for food - the requirement applied to all of the trees in the garden of Eden: pleasant to look at but not good for food: definitely not from God - a tree that brought death obviously was not good for food.

[Gen 2:8-9 KJV]
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[rogerg]

agree with this, has to do with false teachers in the context, True believers will be able to know them by the fruit of their Gospel message and understanding !

Yes, now, but it originated from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan by my reckoning) in the garden.
That is where false teaches have gotten it from: Satan.