Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[GodsGrace]

Who is he talking about the righteous or unrighteous?
Pslam 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life
and not be listed with the righteous.

There is a book of life.
Names can be blotted out of it as is plainly stated in
Revelation 3:5
5‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Deuteronomy 29:20
20“The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

It's difficult for some to accept the entire bible...
but, alas, we must.

I'm not sure what rogerg believes, but you're correct in this case.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, now, but it originated from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Satan by my reckoning) in the garden.
That is where false teaches have gotten it from: Satan.

brightfame52 has to change biblical knowledge that all Christians agree with, except the reformed, to accomodate his belief system.

What strange ideas he has about the Garden !

But, of course, calvinists believe God planned and carried out every little thing that happens on this earth of ours.
So the Garden story also has to be changed to accommodate that belief.

WHY would God ever tell Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree IF IT WAS HE that planned for them to eat from it?

Calvinism just makes no sense to me.

 

[rogerg]

There is a book of life.

There are two books, not one. One, the names can be blotted out of, the other not. Both, at the end of time will
contain exactly the same names.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are two books, not one. One, the names can be blotted out of, the other not. Both, at the end of time will
contain exactly the same names.

Could you provide some scripture?

And I know you have some reformed ideas, but you seem to reason ideas out on your own.
I think everyone should understand what they believe.

 

[rogerg]

Could you provide some scripture?

1) book of life
2) Lamb's book of life

[Rev 20:12 KJV]
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[Rev 3:5 KJV] 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[Rev 21:27 KJV] 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[GodsGrace]

1) book of life
2) Lamb's book of life

[Rev 20:12 KJV]
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[Rev 3:5 KJV] 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
[Rev 21:27 KJV] 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Interesting.
Thanks.
Very late now..
Will read up on this tomorrow.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus stated warnings to the 7 churches and spoke of those who overcame the world in that he wouldn’t blot out their name from the book of life. That possibility must exist hence the warning is senseless.

No it didn't exist, perhaps the false teaching that it could happen existed, and so Christ reassures His Sheep something like that wont occur with them. The overcomers would be the ones whose names are written in the Lambs book of life because He would bring them to Glory, its His responsibility to do so. They are preserved by God. And so the admonition wasnt senseless at all, God uses such to direct and establish His People Prov 6:23

For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

In those 7 churches you had a mixture of the Sheep and the Goats, tares and the wheat !

 

[brightfame52]

How and why to what?

I think there is enough testimony that the Father enables us to believe in Jesus.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

The book of Job was written after the fall - from the fall everything changed. Before the fall (and only before the fall), was there such a thing as truly free will, which God had let play out - to do that was God's will too.

Roger I believe all the books of the bible were written after the fall, dont see your point there. Yes things changed after the fall, still dont see your point. I dont think mans will or anyones will has ever been free from Gods Sovereign will of purpose. Also adams will wasnt free not to sin and bring sin into the world, he, eve, the serpent, all acted in concert to fulfill Gods purpose roger, you dont believe that ?

Which are given in Scripture


Which are given in Scripture

I agree, and I realize that sometimes proper interpretation is just a question of degree.
In this case, I think you've assumed too much, however, you think you assumed just enough.
Not sure how to reconcile the differences at this point. Guess we'll just have to leave this particular issue at that.


The book of Job was written after the fall - from the fall everything changed. Before the fall (and only before the fall), was there such a thing as truly free will, which God had let play out - to do that was God's will too.



If Satan's iniquity is of God's doing, then it couldn't have been said that it was "found" in him, as it would had to have been given to him. Again, free will existed before the fall.

[Eze 28:15 KJV] 15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

It was found in him is just an expression, God knew what was in satan friend, He created him for His purpose !

 

[rogerg]

Roger I believe all the books of the bible were written after the fall, dont see your point there

It is that, yes, all of the books were written after the fall, but parts of what were written were pertaining to, and describing, before the fall, though written after. That part of them, the part pertaining to before the fall, describe (for lack of a better phrase) a reality completely apart from the reality that existed afterwards, so, an assessment of the before, based upon the after, I believe inappropriate. The worlds of the before and after, were almost like, if not exactly like, two entirely different worlds, with the only carry-over between them being God, Adam, Eve, and the law of sin and death. So, should we read the Bible using the post-fall as a basis to superimpose its laws and revelations upon the pre-fall in perceiving the transition as a continuum instead of an end and a beginning, I think that we, for the most part, would be comparing apples to oranges.
Hope that makes sense -I know - it has a fog level of 99% but the best I could do.

 

[rogerg]

It was found in him is just an expression, God knew what was in satan friend, He created him for His purpose !

trying to understand how "found in him" is just an "expression" since God Himself wrote it but am coming up blank.

 

[Randy]

I think there is enough testimony that the Father enables us to believe in Jesus.

I agree with that and note the Father is the one who sent Jesus. Jesus came to do the Fathers will not His own will. Jesus stated He gave us the words the Father gave Him to give us. As in these last days God has spoken to us by His Son.

 

[brightfame52]

randy

I think there is enough testimony that the Father enables us to believe in Jesus.

Correct and thats by a new birth spiritually, a new willing heart given in the new birth, thats what draws the elect to Christ and causes them to believe and follow Him !

 

[brightfame52]

Who is he talking about the righteous or unrighteous?
Pslam 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life
and not be listed with the righteous.

I like the comments of John Gill on that verse:

Let them be blotted out of the book of life,.... Which some understand of this animal life, or of the catalogue of living saints; of their being not written among the living in Jerusalem, or in the writing of the house of Israel, Isaiah 4:3. The Targum is,
"let them he blotted out of the book of the memory of the living.''

Let their names rot and perish, being buried in everlasting oblivion. Aben Ezra interprets this book of the heavens; where, he says, all things that should come to pass were written, at the time they were created; see Luke 10:20. But this is the book of divine predestination or election, often in the New Testament called the book of life; in which the names of some persons are written, and others not, Philippians 4:3; so called, not with respect to the present life, and the affairs of it, which belong to the book of Providence; but with respect to the life of the world to come, or eternal life, as Kimchi explains it. It is no other than God's ordination or foreappointment of men to eternal life; which being called a book, and names written in it, show that election is personal or particular; the exact knowledge God has of his chosen ones; his great care of them, and value for them; his constant remembrance of them, and the certainty of their salvation; for such whose names are written here in reality can never be blotted out: this would be contrary to the unchangeableness of God, the firmness of his purposes, and the safety of his people. Wherefore the design of this imprecation is, that those persons who had, in their own conceits, and in the apprehensions of others, a name in this book; that it might appear, both to themselves and others, they had none, by the awful ruin and destruction that should be brought upon them;

and not be written with the righteous; neither in the book of life with them; by which it appears, that to be blotted out, and not be written, are the same: nor in a Gospel church state; so they were the branches broken off: nor be among them at the resurrection of the just, and in the judgment day. Kimchi observes, that it is the same thing in different words; to be blotted out is the same as not to be written.

 

[Randy]

randy



Correct and thats by a new birth spiritually, a new willing heart given in the new birth, thats what draws the elect to Christ and causes them to believe and follow Him !

My Christian mother steered me to Christ Jesus from my beginning. As far back as my memory goes I have loved and believed in Him. So I don't have a common frame of reference for one who seeks and finds Jesus. To me its been my whole life.

I do believe all that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son. So the book of life and the lambs book of life are one and the same. Other books are referenced as recording what we have done in our lives. Man has a written language and writes such on paper and other things in the past. Bound and put into a book with covers. God is in heaven so His language of books suggesting a written language on something with book covers may be figurative in some manner. With billions and billions of people with all that they did in their lives would be a very large book. God already knows everything. I don't know what a book or books in the heavenly realms would be but it is described as a book for the benefit of the reader.

 

[Randy]

I like the comments of John Gill on that verse:

Sound familar?

Psalm 69:8-9
I am a foreigner to my own family,
a stranger to my own mother’s children;
9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.

Psalm 69:21 They put gall in my food
and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

Psalm 69:27-28
Charge them with crime upon crime;
do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
and not be listed with the righteous.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Christ being slain from the foundation of the world, didn't mean that God would force adam and eve to transgress.

I dont recall saying anything about God forcing adam and eve to do anything !

God surely knew they would, and prepared for them and us a Saviour, but that doesn't mean that He
caused the transgression to occur.

How did God know my friend ? Did He look into a crystal ball and discover what they would do roger ?

What is the difference between forced and predetermined?

roger dont you have a dictionary ? Look up the word force, then look up the word predetermine ! I dont recall saying anything about force, so dont implicate me in that please.

Again, Pharoah was after the fall.

So was 99.9 % of all the bible roger, whats your point in keep saying that ? It seems that whenever you want to dismiss an obvious truth, you conveniently say, oh that was after the fall !

The world before it was a different one than afterwards, with different spiritual conditions and principles between both. We can see this because had they not eaten, they would have lived until they
either ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or until they ate of the tree of life. These principles no longer apply to this world on that basis.

The world before the fall, and adam was all natural roger, nothing spiritual ! 1 Cor 15:46

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

adam and man in him before the fall was earthy

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

There was nothing spiritual about adam and eve before the fall, they were purely carnal, they just had not transgressed yet, but that was bound to happen, God had already determined Heavenly and Spiritual Blessings for His Elect in Christ.

Roger one other note, you seem to place a high premium on adam prefall, yet adam/man in his best estate is altogether vanity Ps 39:5

Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah.

That word man is adam in the hebrew, even adam in his best upright standing state, being yet innocenct, was vanity, and the fall proved it roger. Please let the prefall natural man go, God had better things in store for man in Christ !

It is God who kills, but death itself was manifested through, and by, Satan - not by God's predeterminant will to kill them through the eating of the fruit of Satan's tree - for before that happened, there was no death.

Roger, there was no death yet because man was yet to sin, the wages of sin is death. When adam sinned God executed death as it wage, thats so simple roger, you making things complicated. Death followed sin sir. simple And God does kill bring death

Unless, that is, you are saying that it is God who forces someone to sin so that He can kill them?
Is that what you're saying?

You wearing me out with this force stuff roger, could you please stop referring to me saying or even implying that God has forced anybody to do anything. Roger man is a sinner, so he sins naturally roger, adam was a sinner so he and eve sinned naturally, sure they were innocent for a while, but at Gods appointed time, their sinfulness manifested itself by their disobedince. Thats why God gave them a law, so that there sinfulness would be made manifest, as Paul stated Rom 7:7-11

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.


Adam and eve were sinners from the beginning but didnt know it roger, but God was to make them know it, and then show them their need for Christ ! Its all about Christ roger, remember that friend !

 

[rogerg]

Adam and eve were sinners from the beginning but didnt know it roger, but God was to make them know it, and then show them their need for Christ ! Its all about Christ roger, remember that friend !

Well, I guess since we've both made the same points repeatedly and they remain the same,
I can't see us continuing with this, at least not for now, especially doing so is taking up more and more of our time.
I know that I won't convince you, and I know for certain that you won't convince me - we just perceive
these topics differently.

 

[rogerg]

Will read up on this tomorrow.

wondering,
Just to clarify, it has been a while since I delved into the subject of the books, but after posting to you yesterday
I tried to recall my prior understanding of it. After a brief review, the following perceptions came to mind. I hope I've recalled all of the germane points now.
And I hope by this post that I haven't confused the topic more for you.

There are two books of life: One with only the names of those whom God chose to salvation, the other containing everyone ever to be born. I believe the first book - the one in heaven - is named the Lamb's book of life.
The existence of the first book, the one containing only those whom God has chosen, is established by these verses:

[Luk 10:20 KJV]
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[Heb 12:23 KJV] 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The names "written in heaven" are ONLY those chosen to salvation by God

The second book is the book of life, AKA the book of the living. Everyone's name to ever be born, are in this book: both the chosen and not chosen. However, and this is a big however, those chosen were written into it first - one time for all, at the foundation of the world, the other names written into to it afterwards. Therefore, I think we can almost, in a sense, perceive it as consisting of two subsets of names in the one book: the chosen and not chosen. This, I believe, can be observed If we look very closely at the verses which follow.

In the below verse, we can see that that the kingdom that is to come was prepared for those who are to inherit it from the foundation of the world, when their names were written into the book of life

[Mat 25:34 KJV]
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Those whose names are not in the book of life of the Lamb, shall worship the beast and so will be blotted out of the book of life (BTW "with the righteous" means that their names cannot be left in the book of life, sometimes referred to as the book of the living)

[Psa 69:28 KJV] 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

[Rev 13:8 KJV]
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Rev 21:27 KJV] 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Those whose names NOT WRITTEN into the book of life from the foundation of the world, (i.e., afterwards)
shall be enticed by and follow the beast and will be blotted out. Those whose names were written into it from the foundation of the world, because they were written into it from the foundation of the world, will NOT wonder after or follow the beast nor be blotted out. In the below verse, please observe, that it's not that their names weren't/aren't in the book of life that they are blotted out, but because they are not of those who were written into it "from the foundation of the world". By that, this verse gives to us clear distinction between those written into it from the foundation of the world, and those who weren't.

[Rev 17:8 KJV]
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Wait... didn't the Bible tell us that God only placed into the garden, trees good for food?

Please show me the exact quote, thats on you friend

Didn't the Bible tell us that God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil because doing so would kill them?

I recall God saying to them, commanding them not to eat of that tree, and if they did, they would surely die

So, its fruit couldn't have been good for food

My mother once told me after she made some cookies, son dont eat none of those cookies until after you eat dinner, if you do, I will kill you. Now does that mean the cookies weren't for eating ? Might not be the best example, but you should get the ideal. It was her authority over me in commanding me not to do something that counted, not that the cookies weren't edible. So i dont believe you are looking at it correctly roger

How can that be conjecture? It seems as clear as it can be!

Easily, you have nothing verbatim word for word saying what you said. Now you must follow your own admonition or be a hypocrite ! I treid to warn you everything isnt black and white roger

It wasn't God who placed that tree into the garden

Who did ? Verse of scripture please.

Well, at least for me, I don't think it is. What happened to the comparing of the spiritual with the spiritual you mentioned previously?

Im good with that, you the one that spoke against it, everything must be in black and white for you, then you sent me a jab with 2 Tim 3:16 like I didnt already know that.

Now you back track and losen up a little because you really bit off more than you can chew. Stick with your guns friend.

The Bible doesn't use words loosely. When we are told in it that good fruit cannot come from a corrupt tree, and vice versa, and by their fruit shall ye know them, then that, biblically speaking, links Satan symbolically to a corrupt tree because the fruit he produced was of the most corrupt kind.
From where else would corrupt fruit originate?

It seems you going all over the place and getting nowhere fast. What does Matt 7 have to do with Gen 3 ? More conjecture. Matt 7 I believe is speaking about false teachers. Satan has his preachers 2 Cor 11 but what does that have to do with the garden of eden. Where are you getting these ideas from ? Satan is linked to people preaching a false message.

Don't think so -- it's referring to Eden, not heaven. Eden is the garden of God. Notice that all the trees
of Eden envied him. So, that verse cannot possibly be referring to trees as being trees, as envy is
not the attribute of a tree.

[Eze 28:13 KJV] 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[Eze 31:9 KJV] 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that [were] in the garden of God, envied him.

I still disagree, God had a penchant for making things on earth as it was patterned in heaven, like when Moses was ordered to build the earthy tabernacle Heb 8:5


Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb 9:23-24

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Now in Ezk 31:9 who did the making there ?

roger I caution you in building a doctrine on such imagery, a lot of cults start that way, may God keep you stedfast in the plain Gospel revelation

Not sure what you mean by "the like". But I get all of my teaching from the Bible alone.

everyone says that, the cults too, not calling you a cult. Does anyone else share your views on this particular matter ? Or are pretty much alone with it ? Surely if its Gods Truth, He has enlightened more than just yourself on it.

Where do you think he was when he enticed Eve and Adam?

In the garden roger, in the serpent

See my reply above
regarding trees and the one above that regarding fruit.

Already read it roger.